The Pellicle Podcast

• Ep71 — Damian O'Shea of Heaton Hops, Stockport

  If you’re a regular user of pubs I’m probably someone you’d refer to as a ‘transient’ pubgoer. I enjoy variety—the spice of life, as it were. Stimulation, for me, comes from visiting lots of different pubs, and here in Manchester I am spoiled for choice.It’s easy enough for me to hop from Café Beermoth, to The City Arms, to Bundobust, to head over to The Salisbury for yet another Old Peculier. And if I jump back on a train or bus to where I live in Stockport, I can visit The Magnet, Ye Olde Vic, The Petersgate Tap, Runaway Brewery… you get the picture. But it’s also part of a problem in that this desire I have to visit and experience lots of places often leaves me lacking the feeling of being grounded. And when you think about it, that’s one of the key reasons pubs exist in the first place. Thankfully, one pub, just down the road from me in the Stockport borough of Heaton Chapel, seems to have changed all of that. Here I have found a place where the staff know my name (and insist, for some reason, on always calling me by my full name), where they know what I want to drink before I order it, and where I can sit down and be in full conversation with other regulars within seconds. Here is somewhere I feel safe and welcome, always.The place? Heaton Hops, a tiny pub (you might call it a ‘micropub’ but I find it diminutive so it's not a term I like to use) just off the busy A6 that’s nestled into a neighbourhood that has collected a multitude of similar small, independent businesses. A genuine community. The pub was founded in 2014 by husband and wife Damian O’Shea and Charlotte Winstone, initially as a bottle shop that sold a limited amount of beer to drink on premise. The needs of the community, however, dictated that it should be a pub first, and a bottle shop second, and so that’s what it became; home to eight lines of keg beer, and three hand pulls serving immaculately conditioned pints of real ale. Me being me, in my fondness for this place I decided to pitch an article about it to BEER, the quarterly magazine for the Campaign for Real Ale I write for relatively frequently. The piece will be featured in the Summer 2025 edition, and so if you’re a member you’ll be receiving that around the beginning of June. Listening back to the interview recently, I thought wouldn’t Damian, essentially the landlord of my local, make a great podcast guest. And so I’ve edited that recording into a nice, half-hour interview for you to enjoy.Damian and I chat about Heaton Hops itself, and how he came to own and run his own pub. But we also get stuck into what’s happening in terms of small, independent hospitality businesses at the moment, and what kind of beer gets Damian out of bed these days while also indulging ourselves in a bit of nostalgia for the early craft beer days. It’s a fun conversation, and one I hope you enjoy. If you’d like to visit Heaton Hops (which is also featured in my book, Manchester’s Best Beer Pubs and Bars) you can find it at 7 School Lane, Stockport, SK4 5DE. You might even find me propping up the bar.We’re able to produce The Pellicle Podcast directly thanks to our Patreon subscribers, and our sponsors Loughran Brewers Select. If you’re enjoying this podcast, or the weekly articles we publish, please consider taking out a monthly subscription for less than the price of a pint a month.

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• Ep70 — Paul Meikle-Janney and Damian Blackburn of Dark Woods Coffee, Marsden

  Coffee and beer are, when you think about it, strange bedfellows. One gets you out of bed in the morning, provides stimulation and impetus, while the other (hopefully) tells you that it’s time to slow down and kick back. Perhaps it's the inherent balance this creates which is why I can’t do without either.I first got into coffee about 10 years ago, and for all wants and purposes in this podcast we’ll call it ‘third wave coffee’ (it’s a bit like craft beer, in that it is a term that was invented to definite a subculture within an industry, but it just ended up getting abused and misused.) For me, the appeal of third wave coffee was exactly the same as the one I found in craft beer: big, bold, unusual flavours from small producers. Once I’d discovered it, I was the owner of an Aeropress, hand grinder and scales faster than you can say “Yirgacheffe.” But like beer, my coffee journey has been one of peaks and troughs. In the early days I lusted after the rarest, most interesting coffees I could find, even once spending $15 on a single cup of pour over Colombian Gesha at a fancy American coffee spot. That was the peak. Then, just like with beer and my lust for cask bitter and precise lager, my coffee enthusiasm settled out. An automatic filter coffee machine replaced my manual equipment. A good pour of espresso, like a great pint of cask, was best left to the experts. I was happier now. My interest in coffee, however, lingers on. So when I was invited for a tour of Marsden’s Dark Woods Coffee (hands down one of the best roasters in the UK, in my opinion) I couldn’t refuse. What I love about Dark Woods is both how approachable their coffees are, and their seemingly unwavering commitment to quality beans. This was evident in every part of the process I saw during my visit, from the roastery itself, down to the perfect espresso I tried immediately afterwards. It was also great to see that they’re not limiting how they express their coffees, as I also got to try hopped, and fruited coffees, plus even bourbon barrel-aged coffee.Perhaps there are more similarities between modern beer and coffee than I care to admit. This is why I was thrilled to get a chance to sit down and chat with two of Dark Woods’ founding partners, Paul Meikle-Janney and Damian Blackburn. I was curious to see where their perception of coffee culture is, and how what their industry is experiencing relates to what’s currently happening in beer. It’s a compelling listen, and I’d like to thank Paul and Damian for taking the time to chat. If you enjoyed this, then why not check out our recent article by Tom Wilkinson (also of Dark Woods) who recently wrote for Pellicle about the place of third wave coffee in a post-craft world. You can read it here. We’re able to produce The Pellicle Podcast directly thanks to our Patreon subscribers, and our sponsors Loughran Brewers Select. If you’re enjoying this podcast, or the weekly articles we publish, please consider taking out a monthly subscription for less than the price of a pint a month.

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• Ep69 — Big Beers from a Big Weekend

  Although it’s still a few months away I’m already getting excited about this year's FyneFest. It’s one of the most important dates in my calendar, not just because we head up there to host our Meet the Brewer panel discussions, but because it’s simply one of the best beer-focussed events that the UK has to offer.While I tend to get misty-eyed over glorious pints of Jarl from the source, I also recognise it as a chance to try some truly special beers that I don’t normally get to enjoy. The Origins Bar, where our talks take place, is a great example of this. Here you’ll find plenty of funky wild beers and mixed ferments from several breweries including Fyne’s own Origins project, plus wild-fermented ciders from producers such as Ross-on-Wye. For this discussion we decided to focus on the biggest beers pouring at the festival: stouts, barleywines, strong saisons and biere de garde—the kind of beers a situation like FyneFest is the perfect place to treat yourself too. On the panel I’m joined by Gareth Young from Glasgow’s Epochal Barrel Fermented Ales, Lally Morrison from Polly’s Brew Co in Mold, North Wales, and Sean Knight from Siren Craft Brew in Berkshire. Each brewer brought something truly special for us to taste, in addition to their wealth of knowledge and experience in producing these kinds of beers. Tune in for a little bit of ‘how’ but plenty more ‘why’ and, indeed, why we can expect lots more big beers from these breweries in the future.We’re able to produce The Pellicle Podcast directly thanks to our Patreon subscribers, and our sponsors Loughran Brewers Select. If you’re enjoying this podcast, or the weekly articles we publish, please consider taking out a monthly subscription for less than the price of a pint a month.

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• Ep68 — Paul King of French & Jupps Maltings

  Until the start of 2024 I had never heard of French & Jupps, the UK’s oldest continuously operating maltster, established in 1689. When I was offered to visit by my friend Jonathan Mitchell, who distributes their malt via his Northern Ireland-based company Get ‘Er Brewed, I just had to tag along. Malt has always been central to both my enjoyment and fascination with beer, and is my favourite ingredient. You can probably say that water is more important, and hops are more exciting (sorry, yeast) but it's malt that fuels my curiosity the most. Malt forms not only an important intersection between the technical side of brewing, and the creative, flavour-driven element, but for me also provides the most tangible connection to its agriculture – the fact that beer is a product of the land first, and the factory second.Located a 20-minute train ride from Tottenham Hale station in North London, French & Jupps is located in the picturesque town of Stanstead Abbotts, next to the River Lea. Although by no-means small, it's not quite as gargantuan as other maltings in the UK, such as those operated by Crisp, Simpsons, or Bairds. That’s in part because they don’t produce base malts, instead focusing exclusively on crystal, roasted and what’s known as patent malt – the latter so-called because historically a permit was required to authorise its manufacture. French & Jupps produces everything from crystal malts – designed to add sweetness and body – to patent malts that can imbue beer with everything from notes of chocolate and coffee, to bitterness and astringency. You might not have heard of them as a maltster before, but you have almost certainly tasted their malt in beers such as Harvey’s Mild, or Shepherd Neame Christmas Ale. But there’s another reason you might not have heard of them, and that’s because their product was, until recently, distributed via other maltsters, and often re-bagged so none of their branding was present. This is, in part, where managing director Paul King comes in. Joining the company just over four years ago, Paul has had an illustrious career in brewing, holding positions at Diageo, SAB Miller and Anheauser Busch, in roles that have seen him based in Japan, South Africa and the USA. Now, under his stewardship, French & Jupps are beginning to take a more prominent role in their own distribution, but also starting to tell their own, fascinating story in greater detail. I’m pleased to tell you I’m working on a written companion to this interview with Paul that will fill in the details of this maltster's history, while also explaining a bit more about roasted malt on a technical level, and how it's used to make certain beers taste and feel the way they do. Until then, please enjoy this delightful conversation with one of the most interesting people in the beer industry I’ve had the pleasure of meeting. It’s about malt, yes, but also about understanding the vital role it plays in the beer we drink.We’re able to produce The Pellicle Podcast directly thanks to our Patreon subscribers, and our sponsors Loughran Brewers Select. If you’re enjoying this podcast, or the weekly articles we publish, please consider taking out a monthly subscription for less than the price of a pint a month.

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• Ep67 — Defining British Wild Beer

  For the past few months I have been considering a very specific subgenre of British beer, its place in the wider culture of British beer, and my own enjoyment of it. You might call the beverages within this category by the name saison, sour, barrel-aged, or even mixed-fermentation. None of these terms, however, feel like they do this category, how exciting it is, or what it actually means to people justice. The reasons why they don’t are multifaceted—not to mention complicated—but the reason why it’s important that we do find the terminology to describe them is because of the vast range of quality and deliciousness producers of these sorts of beers are making. Some of the most stunning things I have drunk over the last 12 months have so often been left to mature in barrels or foeders, typically with a variety of yeasts and bacteria, and sometimes other ingredients ranging from foraged herbs to harvested fruits. I estimate that there are at least 50 producers of these beers within the UK at the moment (and as part of this project I hope to catalogue them). Some of these producers, like Balance in Manchester and Mills in Gloucestershire, are making these kinds of beers outright. Others, like Burning Sky in Sussex and The Kernel in London are making them alongside an existing range of “clean” beers. Now there’s a word that easily defines a pale ale, lager or IPA. For some reason, though, I don’t think “dirty” is going to work for the beers we’re trying to talk about here. But what about “wild?” Sure, it’s not not perfect, and I don't think there's a one size fits all solution here, but it works for me. (And how the hell do you present a beer like this to someone who doesn’t know anything about them and call them “mixed-fermentation?” Honestly, it's an overly technical term that does nothing to describe how a beer actually tastes, and we need to move on from it.)There’s a lot of work to do to unpack the excitement occurring in British Wild Beer, and that’s a project I have assigned myself this year. This podcast, recorded in June 2024 at FyneFest, was pretty much the starting point for that thinking. It features an all-star cast, including The Kernel’s Evin O’Riordain, Burning Sky’s Mark Tranter, Will Harris from Balance Brewing and Blending, plus Dan Wye, who spearheads Fyne Ales own wild beer project: Origins. For a long time I have been asking “who are these beers for,” and you will hear me ask it as part of this panel discussion. Perhaps the biggest lesson this chat taught me is that this doesn’t matter, but the beers that are being made definitely do. It's time we found the language that helps place them into the wider culture of British Beer.We’re able to produce The Pellicle Podcast directly thanks to our Patreon subscribers, and our sponsors Loughran Brewers Select. If you’re enjoying this podcast, or the weekly articles we publish, please consider taking out a monthly subscription for less than the price of a pint a month.

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