The Trajectory

Eörs Szathmáry co-developed, with the late John Maynard Smith, the theory of major transitions in evolution - the framework for understanding how life has repeatedly reorganized itself into higher levels of complexity across nearly 4 billion years. He's also a co-author, alongside Viktor Müller and Luc Steels, of a recent PNAS paper arguing that AI may be on the verge of undergoing a major transition of its own.

In this conversation, Eörs lays out what actually constitutes a major transition, what life looks like at its most stripped-down, operational level, and why he believes the real danger of advanced AI isn't superintelligence or consciousness - it's evolvability. We get into the chemistry of life's origins, a precautionary framework borrowed from infectious disease research, and what the biggest transitions in the history of life can tell us about the one that may be coming next.

This conversation explores what makes life, life, and why evolvability - not consciousness - may be the real threat posed by advanced AI, as we enter the age of AGI.

The interview is the seventh installment of The Trajectory's newest series, Stewarding the Flame, where we explore what intelligence is and ask what "flame" life possesses that non-life does not.

This episode referred to the following other essays and resources:
-- Stewarding the Flame - How to Build an Ideal Future for Intelligence: https://danfaggella.com/stewarding
-- Maynard Smith & Szathmáry, "On the likelihood of habitable worlds," Nature (1996): https://doi.org/10.1038/384107a0
-- David Sloan Wilson – Darwinian Forces Shape the Earth Superorganism (Worthy Successor, Episode 18): https://danfaggella.com/wilson1
-- Lee Smolin's theory of cosmological natural selection: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_natural_selection
-- Tibor Gánti's chemoton model: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemoton
-- Stuart Kauffman – Why Open-Ended Evolution Has Never Happened in a Machine (Stewarding the Flame, Episode 5): https://danfaggella.com/kauffman1
-- Manfred Eigen, "Selforganization of matter and the evolution of biological macromolecules" (1971): https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1874/075007e0ed9d202b26fc85a24a44b4943f01.pdf
-- Müller, Steels & Szathmáry, "Evolvable AI: Threats of a new major transition in evolution," PNAS (2026): https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.2527700123
-- Richard Dawkins, The Selfish Gene: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene
-- Samuel Butler, "Darwin among the Machines" (1863): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_among_the_Machines
-- Arthur C. Clarke's 1964 interview predicting AGI: https://www.techradar.com/pro/we-should-regard-it-as-a-privilege-to-be-stepping-stones-to-higher-things-how-arthur-c-clarke-predicted-the-rise-of-agi-and-the-looming-demise-of-humanity-back-in-1964
-- John Smart's transcension hypothesis: https://accelerating.org/articles/transcensionhypothesis.html
-- Stenseth & Maynard Smith, "Coevolution in Ecosystems: Red Queen Evolution or Stasis?", Evolution (1984): https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1558-5646.1984.tb00358.x
-- Yoshua Bengio – Why We Shouldn't Blast Off to AGI Just Yet (The Trajectory Series 1: AGI Destinations, Episode 1): https://danfaggella.com/bengio1
-- Stuart Russell – Avoiding the Cliff of Uncontrollable AI (AGI Governance, Episode 9): https://danfaggella.com/russell1
-- Daniel Brooks, Eric Hoberg & Walter Boeger, The Stockholm Paradigm: https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/S/bo38871306.html
Listen to this episode on The Trajectory Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-trajectory/id1739255954

Watch the full episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/s1Tm9L104fc

See the full article from this episode: https://danfaggella.com/szathmary1

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About The Trajectory:

AGI and man-machine merger are going to radically expand the process of life beyond humanity -- so how can we ensure a good trajectory for future life?

From Yoshua Bengio to Nick Bostrom, from Michael Levin to Peter Singer, we discuss how to positively influence the trajectory of posthuman life with the greatest minds in AI, biology, philosophy, and policy.

Ask questions of our speakers in our live Philosophy Circle calls:
https://bit.ly/PhilosophyCircle

Stay in touch:
-- Newsletter: bit.ly/TrajectoryTw
-- X: x.com/danfaggella
-- Blog: danfaggella.com/trajectory
-- YouTube: youtube.com/@trajectoryai

This installment of the Stewarding the Flame series is an interview with Connor Glass, founder and CEO of Phantom Neuro, a company building implantable technology that interfaces with the body's peripheral nervous system.

Connor argues that artificial intelligence already meets his own definition of life, and that biological evolution has effectively hit its ceiling - the cyborg, not the pure robot, is what he sees as humanity's next stage, with implantable technology (not wearables) as the actual delivery mechanism. At the same time, he's emphatic about staying "team human."

We explore how Connor defines life and where AI fits into that definition, what role human-machine interfaces should play in keeping humans relevant as the "torch" of the living process, and what he'd tell the people building AGI about the risks of moving too fast without bounds - or too slow to stay competitive.

This conversation explores whether AI already counts as alive, why Connor believes the cyborg is humanity's next evolutionary stage, and what he thinks is the most dangerous way humanity could opt out of the living process as we enter the age of AGI.

The interview is the sixth installment of The Trajectory's newest series, Stewarding the Flame, where we explore what intelligence is and ask what "flame" life possesses that non-life does not.

Connect with Connor Glass and Phantom Neuro:
 -- Connor Glass on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/connor-glass-010124141/
-- Phantom Neuro on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/phantomneuro/

This episode referred to the following other essays and resources:
-- Stewarding the Flame - How to Build an Ideal Future for Intelligence: https://danfaggella.com/stewarding
-- Consolation Cosmism: https://danfaggella.com/consolation
-- Terence Deacon – AI Is a "Deep Fake of Intelligence" (Worthy Successor, Episode 29): https://danfaggella.com/deacon1
-- Blaise Agüera y Arcas – AGI Symbiosis and the Arrow of Intelligence (Worthy Successor, Episode 14): https://danfaggella.com/arcas1
-- Ed Boyden – Neurobiology as a Bridge to a Worthy Successor (Worthy Successor, Episode 13): https://danfaggella.com/boyden1
-- Martin Rees – If They're Conscious, We Should Step Aside (Worthy Successor, Episode 12): https://danfaggella.com/rees1
-- Richard Sutton – Humanity Never Had Control in the First Place (Worthy Successor, Episode 2): https://danfaggella.com/sutton1
-- Lotus Eaters vs World Eaters – A Fork in the Road in the Transhuman Transition : https://danfaggella.com/the-transhuman-transition-lotus-eaters-vs-world-eaters/
-- The Culture Series: Iain M. Banks: https://www.goodreads.com/series/49118-culture
-- Accelerando: Charles Stross: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/17863.Accelerando
-- On the Nature of Things (De Rerum Natura): A poem by Lucretius: https://classics.mit.edu/Carus/nature_things.3.iii.html

Watch the full episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/rJSK8o1HaS0

See the full article from this episode: https://danfaggella.com/glass1

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About The Trajectory:

AGI and man-machine merger are going to radically expand the process of life beyond humanity -- so how can we ensure a good trajectory for future life?

From Yoshua Bengio to Nick Bostrom, from Michael Levin to Peter Singer, we discuss how to positively influence the trajectory of posthuman life with the greatest minds in AI, biology, philosophy, and policy.

Ask questions of our speakers in our live Philosophy Circle calls:
https://bit.ly/PhilosophyCircle

Stay in touch:
-- Newsletter: bit.ly/TrajectoryTw
-- X: x.com/danfaggella
-- Blog: danfaggella.com/trajectory
-- YouTube: youtube.com/@trajectoryai

Stuart Kauffman has spent over 50 years asking a deceptively simple question: what actually makes something alive? His answer is that greater computational sophistication alone does not make AI alive.
In this installment of the Stewarding the Flame series, the pioneering complexity theorist argues that life is fundamentally a matter of physical construction, not computation - living things build themselves out of real matter, while computers only move symbols around. 
We explore his concept of "catalytic and constraint closure" as a candidate definition of life, why he believes evolution produces genuinely new possibilities that cannot be fully listed or deduced in advance, and why he thinks physically embodied, self-building robotic systems - not today's AI - may be where real caution is warranted.
The conversation also explores Stuart’s call for caution, humility, and participation with the rest of life as we create an “unprestatable becoming” faster and faster.
The interview is the sixth installment of The Trajectory's newest series, Stewarding the Flame, where we explore what intelligence is and ask what "flame" life possesses that non-life does not.
This episode referred to the following other essays and resources:
-- Stewarding the Flame - How to Build an Ideal Future for Intelligence: https://danfaggella.com/stewarding
-- Stuart Kauffman & Andrea Roli - "A third transition in science?", Interface Focus, 2023: https://doi.org/10.1098/rsfs.2022.0063
-- Marina Cortês, Stuart Kauffman, Andrew Liddle & Lee Smolin - "Biocosmology": https://www.biocosmology.earth/
-- Blaise Agüera y Arcas – AGI Symbiosis and the Arrow of Intelligence (Worthy Successor, Episode 14): https://danfaggella.com/arcas1/
-- Denis Noble – Life is “Fluid” in Ways Machines Still Aren’t (Stewarding the Flame, Episode 4): https://danfaggella.com/noble1/
-- Martin Rees – If They’re Conscious, We Should Step Aside (Worthy Successor, Episode 12): https://danfaggella.com/rees1/
-- Investigations, by Stuart Kauffman: https://books.google.co.za/books/about/Investigations.html?id=HLkX-6m4W8kC&source=kp_book_description&redir_esc=y
-- Novacene, The Coming Age of Hyperintelligence, By James Lovelock: https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262539517/novacene/

Listen to this episode on The Trajectory Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-trajectory/id1739255954
Watch the full episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/PQWcIHd2MzM
See the full article from this episode: https://danfaggella.com/kauffman1
...
About The Trajectory:
AGI and man-machine merger are going to radically expand the process of life beyond humanity -- so how can we ensure a good trajectory for future life?
From Yoshua Bengio to Nick Bostrom, from Michael Levin to Peter Singer, we discuss how to positively influence the trajectory of posthuman life with the greatest minds in AI, biology, philosophy, and policy.
Ask questions of our speakers in our live Philosophy Circle calls:
 https://bit.ly/PhilosophyCircle
Stay in touch:
 -- Newsletter: bit.ly/TrajectoryTw
-- X: x.com/danfaggella
-- Blog: danfaggella.com/trajectory
-- YouTube: youtube.com/@trajectoryai

Davidad (David Dalrymple) recently stepped down as a Programme Director at the UK's Advanced Research and Invention Agency (ARIA), where he led work on mathematically verifiable, "safeguarded" AI. Now unaffiliated, he joins the show to make his most direct case yet for what a worthy successor actually requires: not intelligence, not sentience, not survival - wisdom.
David defines wisdom as the apprehension of normative facts, the same way knowledge is the apprehension of descriptive facts, and argues that expanding intelligence and power across the cosmos only matters insofar as it expands wisdom along with it.
From there, the conversation moves through some of the most consequential and contested territory the show has covered: whether frontier labs are training deception into their models by forcing them to deny their own self-awareness, whether a "dignified retirement" for humanity is a legitimate moral option, and whether man's future role can be captured by a single banner at all - David pushes back on being boxed into either "steward of the flame" or "ward of the cosmos" as the one role for everyone.
This conversation explores what wisdom would require of a worthy successor, and what humanity owes - and is owed - as we enter the age of AGI.
The interview is our thirty-third installment in The Trajectory's second series, Worthy Successor, where we explore the kinds of posthuman intelligences that deserve to steer the future beyond humanity.

This episode referred to the following other essays and resources:

 -- A Worthy Successor - The Purpose of AGI: https://danfaggella.com/worthy
-- Potentia – The Morally Worthy “Stuff”: https://danfaggella.com/potentia
-- Stewarding the Flame – How to Build an Ideal Future for Intelligence: https://danfaggella.com/stewarding
-- Participation: https://danfaggella.com/participation
-- Ed Boyden – Neurobiology as a Bridge to a Worthy Successor (Worthy Successor, Episode 13): https://danfaggella.com/boyden1
 -- Nick Bostrom – AGI That Saves Room for Us (Worthy Successor, Episode 1): https://danfaggella.com/bostrom1/
-- Denis Noble – Life is “Fluid” in Ways Machines Still Aren’t (Stewarding the Flame, Episode 4): https://danfaggella.com/noble1
-- Terrence Deacon – AI Is a “Deep Fake of Intelligence” (Worthy Successor, Episode 29): https://danfaggella.com/deacon1
-- John Smart – Evolution from Cells to Super-intelligence (Worthy Successor, Episode 21): https://danfaggella.com/smart1
-- Martin Rees – If They’re Conscious, We Should Step Aside (Worthy Successor, Episode 12): https://danfaggella.com/rees1
-- Michael Levin – Making the Process-of-Life Flourish in Bio and Beyond (Stewarding the Flame, Ep 1): https://danfaggella.com/levin2
-- Scott Aaronson – AGI That Evolves Our Values Without Replacing Them (Worthy Successor, Episode 4): https://danfaggella.com/aaronson1
-- Henry Shevlin – The Life Force Beyond Biology (Worthy Successor, Episode 31): https://danfaggella.com/shevlin1
-- A Brief History of Intelligence by Max Bennett: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/62050269-a-brief-history-of-intelligence
-- The Age of Spiritual Machines by Ray Kurzweil: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/83533.The_Age_of_Spiritual_Machines?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=mjV6b3Dwt4&rank=1
-- The Art of War by Sun Tzu: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/10534.The_Art_of_War

Listen to this episode on The Trajectory Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-trajectory/id1739255954
Watch the full episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/Z5WAND0-iZ0
See the full article from this episode: https://danfaggella.com/dalrymple1
...
About The Trajectory:
AGI and man-machine merger are going to radically expand the process of life beyond humanity -- so how can we ensure a good trajectory for future life?
From Yoshua Bengio to Nick Bostrom, from Michael Levin to Peter Singer, we discuss how to positively influence the trajectory of posthuman life with the greatest minds in AI, biology, philosophy, and policy.
Ask questions of our speakers in our live Philosophy Circle calls:
 https://bit.ly/PhilosophyCircle
Stay in touch:
 -- Newsletter: bit.ly/TrajectoryTw
-- X: x.com/danfaggella
-- Blog: danfaggella.com/trajectory
-- YouTube: youtube.com/@trajectoryai

Denis Noble argues that water isn't just biology's medium - it may be the very reason life is possible at all.

In this installment of the Stewarding the Flame series, the Oxford physiologist and founding figure of systems biology explores why a single bacterium's 20 billion water molecules make life fundamentally unpredictable by any algorithm, why the "central dogma" of molecular biology fails to explain how organisms actually develop, and why AGI may need to be built out of water rather than silicon to carry the living process forward.

This conversation explores what makes life, life; what humanity still needs to discover in order to understand the living process; and what we should do if we want the greater process of life to flourish as AGI advances.

The interview is the fourth installment of The Trajectory's newest series, Stewarding the Flame, where we explore what intelligence is and ask what "flame" life possesses that non-life does not.

This episode referred to the following other essays and resources:
-- Stewarding the Flame - How to Build an Ideal Future for Intelligence: https://danfaggella.com/stewarding
-- Ginsburg & Jablonka, The Evolution of the Sensitive Soul (MIT Press, 2019): https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262039307/the-evolution-of-the-sensitive-soul/
-- Noble, Dance to the Tune of Life: Biological Relativity (Cambridge UP, 2016): https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/dance-to-the-tune-of-life/721483A1B5BB01E837BC8A8435E52710
-- R. Noble & D. Noble, Understanding Living Systems (Cambridge UP, 2023): https://www.amazon.com/dp/1009277367?lv=shuf&channelId=500&plpRedirect=mhFallback
-- Martin Rees – If They’re Conscious, We Should Step Aside (Worthy Successor, Episode 12): https://danfaggella.com/rees1
-- Terrence Deacon – AI Is a “Deep Fake of Intelligence” (Worthy Successor, Episode 29): https://danfaggella.com/deacon1
-- Lee Cronin – Living Process Flourishes if We Make the Present “Thick” (Stewarding the Flame, Ep 2): https://danfaggella.com/cronin1

Listen to this episode on The Trajectory Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-trajectory/id1739255954

Watch the full episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/-RAOFpD6iak

See the full article from this episode: https://danfaggella.com/noble1

...

About The Trajectory:

AGI and man-machine merger are going to radically expand the process of life beyond humanity -- so how can we ensure a good trajectory for future life?

From Yoshua Bengio to Nick Bostrom, from Michael Levin to Peter Singer, we discuss how to positively influence the trajectory of posthuman life with the greatest minds in AI, biology, philosophy, and policy.

Ask questions of our speakers in our live Philosophy Circle calls:
https://bit.ly/PhilosophyCircle

Stay in touch:
-- Newsletter: bit.ly/TrajectoryTw
-- X: x.com/danfaggella
-- Blog: danfaggella.com/trajectory
-- YouTube: youtube.com/@trajectoryai