The Westminster Tradition

In her first interview since the release of the NACC’s report into Robodebt, Deputy Commissioner Kylie Kilgour joins us to unpack her findings and what it all means for the public service. This is a rare chance to go beyond the written report with candid reflections on the conditions that led to one of most significant failures of public administration in Australia, and the complexities of the accountability process. 
In this episode, we cover:
the four key contributing factors to serious corrupt conduct: ignorance of the law, failure to work with lawyers, rushed timelines and senior pressure  
why being “polite and collegiate” can fail - and the risks of not making concerns unmistakably clear
how austerity, budget cycles and unrealistic deadlines distort judgement and behaviour
the role of toxic culture, including bullying, fear of speaking up, and the myth of untouchable senior leaders
the difference between serious maladministration and corrupt conduct - and why some high-profile referrals did not meet the legal threshold for corrupt conduct
what Robodebt reveals about missed opportunities to intervene - and the consequences of not listening
The NACC's Guide to Ethical Decision-Making: https://www.nacc.gov.au/research-and-guides#ethical-decision-making-a-guide
Operation Myrtleford Report: https://www.nacc.gov.au/investigation-reports-and-case-studies#operation-myrtleford

Get in touch with the NACC: https://www.nacc.gov.au/about-nacc/contact-us

Further NACC resources: 
What is corrupt conduct?
What is serious or systemic corrupt conduct?
Voluntary referrals: a guide
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

On 11 March, the National Anti-Corruption Commission released its findings on Robodebt. It found that two of the six referred public servants engaged in serious corrupt conduct, and four did not. 
Caroline, Alison and Danielle discuss three things: the "low level" code of conduct failures that created the toxic soil in which corrupt conduct could grow; the detail of the NACC's findings on the Robodebt Six; and the harder, unresolved question of whether individual accountability processes can ever be adequate for system failure with Robodebt's scale of human harm.
Referenced in this episode:
Jenny Miller, The Saturday Paper https://www.thesaturdaypaper.com.au/news/politics/2026/03/21/robodebt-six-they-continue-i-am-left-with-urn-containing-the-ashes-my
Rick Morton, Cut Through podcast (Crikey) https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/cut-through/id1616953809?i=1000756172293 
NACC, findings on Robodebt referrals, 11 March 2025 https://www.nacc.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/2026-03/Operation%20Myrtleford%20Investigation%20Report.pdf 
Commissioner Holmes, Royal Commission into the Robodebt Scheme — sealed section https://www.aph.gov.au/Parliamentary_Business/Tabled_Documents/15488
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

In our last episode on Mad Cow Disease, we take our final lessons from the public servicing of this massive health, agricultural and economic crisis. With the benefit of hindsight, we weigh the significant market interventions and public perception against actual transmission data. 
In this episode:
What decision making looks like under radical uncertainty, where its government's job to keep things running.
The massive supply chain repercussions of the beef ban, and how much  expertise policymakers actually need when making interventions.
Whether the public has a realistic understanding of what governments can achieve in a crisis and whether governments can still have an honest conversation about trade offs for the public good.
Why sensing the public mood is not “political”, but a critical source of information about whether policy is working or failing.
Whether more information and transparency actually build confidence in a democratised media environment, including social media and large language models.
Where actual transmission ended up, and how it compares with other risk calculations and personal mitigations. 
What all of this means for modern public servants operating in systems where uncertainty is the norm, not the exception.
Insiders, Chris Bowen - Energy Minister (22/3/2026)https://iview.abc.net.au/show/insiders?utm_content=link&utm_medium=content_shared
The Rest Is History podcast - Revolution In Iran | Fall of the Shah (Part 1) https://therestishistory.com/episodes/fall-of-the-shah-part-1
Fooled by Randomness by Nassim Nicholas Talebhttps://www.penguin.com.au/books/fooled-by-randomness-9780141031484
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

It’s March 1996 and the UK Government announces that mad cow disease has been linked to human cases. Within days beef consumption falls by half, public confidence is non-existent, and ministers begin meeting in chaotic quasi-cabinet groups sometimes twice a day.
In this episode we discuss:
How to brief best in the chaos of things changing by the hour 
Whether policy should change when the risk hasn't changed, but risk perception has. 
The policy process where decisions are not weighed but whittled down by what’s acceptable to industry and public 
Why what seemed like an extreme policy response on Monday suddenly felt inadequate by Thursday
Whether scenario planning is useful when public sentiment in unpredictable and irrational
Why in a crisis it is better to stop complaining about constantly changing decisions and simply focus on being useful
How the EU's hardline and indefinite export ban politically wedged the UK
The difficulty of restoring public confidence when there is no clear wrongdoing to find and fix, and the crisis is largely the product of uncertainty
The realities of how much the contemporary populace can realistically sustain engagement with multiple complex risks at once
New Species of Trouble by Kai Erikson
https://www.amazon.com.au/New-Species-Trouble-Experience-Disasters/dp/0393313190 
Any Ordinary Day - Leigh Sales 
https://www.penguin.com.au/books/any-ordinary-day-9781760893637
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!

Few people come to policy officer positions with specific policy training. They might be teachers, lawyers, front-line workers or subject-matter experts. Who teaches us how to do policy work, and what policy actually is? Enter Salli Cohen’s brilliant new book, 'Rollercoaster: How to be a bloody good policy officer.'
In this episode we catch up with Salli about:
Her one-word definition of policy.
What it takes to be a genuinely good policy officer, beyond technical competence.
The difference between evidence-based and evidence-informed. 
Why curiosity, empathy and humility are not ‘soft’ skills but core capabilities.
The importance of an orientation to serving the community.
Keeping your antennae up to context, politics and implementation realities.
The importance of letting people say their bit. 
Speaking up when things are going pear-shaped.
Salli’s hopes for the next generation of policy professionals.
Purchase Salli's book 'Rollercoaster: How to be a bloody good policy officer' officer here: https://www.thepolicyroom.com/product/Rollercoaster  
Next week we return with Part 3 of our Mad Cow Disease series. 
This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.
Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected].

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 

'Til next time!