The Westminster Tradition

• The Hon Tom Koutsantonis MP: Lessons from a Veteran Minister

  What makes someone qualified to be a minister? In this candid conversation with Tom Koutsantonis, South Australia's longest-serving current parliamentarian, Danielle explores the fascinating intersection where political leadership meets public administration.Drawing on his remarkable career spanning multiple portfolios including Treasury, Energy, and Transport, Koutsantonis takes us behind the curtain of ministerial decision-making.He dispels the myth that ministers need specialised expertise in their portfolio areas, arguing instead that their authority comes from democratic mandate and demonstrated competence rather than academic credentials.The discussion offers a masterclass in policy implementation, particularly during times of crisis.Koutsantonis shares the stark reality of South Australia's 2016 energy blackout, where conventional thinking had to be abandoned for bold action. "It was Jay and I just saying 'I don't care what you think,'" he recalls of overriding resistant public servants to implement transformative energy solutions. This candid account reveals how decisive leadership can break through entrenched bureaucratic thinking when circumstances demand it.Public servants will find particular value in Koutsantonis's insights on ministerial briefings. Despite modern trends toward abbreviated formats, he staunchly defends detailed written briefings: "If ministers aren't reading past the first three lines, it's to their detriment." His perspective offers reassurance that thorough policy work remains essential to good governance.This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be. Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected] to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 'Til next time!

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• The Billion-Dollar Payroll Disaster: lessons from Queensland Health’s Payroll System

  In this episode, Danielle, Caroline and Alison look at ANOTHER big ICT transformation project, with enormous human impacts and a long and expensive clean up. The Queensland Health payroll system failure ranks as one of Australia's worst public administration disasters, costing taxpayers $1.2 billion and leaving 78,000 healthcare workers without proper pay. What began as a $98 million routine upgrade became a case study in governance failure, mismanaged procurement, and the dangers of outsourcing critical government functions without maintaining proper oversight. IBM was actually barred from taking Queensland government work for its involvement in the scandal.In this episode we revisit some lessons with a sharper eye on lessons including:It’s easy to get out of touch with what matters to your workforce - and payroll is *the* most important back end functionThe critical question of identifying how much inaccuracy you are willing to live with before accepting a systemContract management is critical - and never sign a release from liability just to get the contractor to keep workingGeneralists can’t stand back from ICT projectsReferenced in this episodeRichard Chesterman QC Queensland Health Payroll System Commission of Inquiry (2013)The Radical How’s recommendation to shift procurement so that we buy or rent services that support teams, not simply to whom outcomes are outsourced“This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be. Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected] to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 'Til next time!

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• Working from home: when flexibility becomes political

  In this episode, we dive into Danielle’s favourite topic - work place flexibility. Public servants working from home has become a visible fault line in Australian politics and media, revealing deeper questions about productivity, surveillance, and trust in our workplaces. The convenience culture debate exposes how work design impacts everything from gender equity to regional development.Danielle, Alison and Caroline unpack the following:That COVID forced rapid technology deployment and showed flexible work was more feasible than previously claimedThe way in which working from home discussions often get unhelpfully gendered, limiting broader conversations about work designThe leadership capability gaps revealed in the "if I can't see them, how do I know they're working" mindsetHow intentional communication becomes even more important in hybrid or remote environmentsWhy the topic has a special valence in relation to the public service, and public expectations.Referenced in the episode :The work of Professor Carol Kulik on the importance of autonomy in the workplaceWorksafe Australia’s advice on the psychosocial hazards, including low job control, poor support and lack of role clarity.This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be. Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected] to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 'Til next time!

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• The Radical How: Why one big bet is government’s riskiest move

  What if the real problem in public service reform isn't what we're trying to do, but how we're trying to do it? Caroline, Danielle, and Alison dive deep into a revolutionary approach to government change by examining The Radical How – a framework published by UK innovation foundation Nesta.The conversation unpacks three core principles that could transform public service:start small and test assumptions early rather than pretending to know all answers upfront;build genuinely multidisciplinary teams instead of working in silos; andfocus relentlessly on outcomes for people rather than system outputs.Through concrete examples like COVID testing in the UK and reflections on infrastructure projects that changed course mid-development, we illuminate both the potential and challenges of this approach.But implementing this "radical how" faces significant barriers – from political imperatives that demand certainty to procurement systems that reward the wrong things.We grapple with tough questions about experimenting in people's lives, gaining social license for change, and communicating complex approaches in simple ways.We reflect on how federalism already offers a natural experiment in policy diversity across Australian jurisdictions, though we rarely harness its full potential.Referenced in the episodeNESTA The Radical HowThe radical 1960s schools experiment that created a whole new alphabet - and left thousands of children unable to spellRick Morton Smoking data taken down after link to vape banOur previous episode on Pink Batts and Robodebt - lessons not learnedThis podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be. Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected] to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 'Til next time!

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• Tom Loosemore: behind the scenes of the Universal Credit Reset

  Tom Loosemore of Public Digital was instrumental in the capital R Reset of Universal Credit.In this interview, he tells Caroline there were no beanbags, but a lot of multi-D.This interview adds nuance and richness to the picture sketched in our previous Universal Credit episodes. Some of the key insights include:Fundamental problem of the original approach was thinking of Universal Credit as a technology challenge rather than a complex policy, operational, and design challengeThe first phase of system design suffered from incorrect data models, overly complex contracting arrangements, and thousands of untested assumptionsReset team created a small, multidisciplinary team, outside main DWP building to establish psychological safetyClear ministerial outcome statement ("more people in more work more of the time") provided crucial North StarTesting real service with 100 users through creative use of secondary legislation before wider rolloutRadical shift was to understand that the core feature of Universal Credit was how to cope with change of circumstances, not signing on or signing offSenior leaders like Neil Couling protected teams from political interference while maintaining ministerial accountabilityAdaptable culture allowed 9-10 policy/technology changes daily during COVID crisisDigital transformation requires outcomes focus, multidisciplinary teams, and continuous testing of assumptionsSystem proved sustainability by withstanding unprecedented change in both demand and policy over timeThis podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be. Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at [email protected] to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music. 'Til next time!

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