Trust & Influence in B2B

Most of the conversations that decide a B2B deal happen in a room you'll never be in. Buyers swap recommendations, compare notes and build their shortlists in spaces marketers can neither see nor measure – and by the time you're in contention, the decision is often half made.
In this episode of Trust & Influence in B2B, Joel Harrison is joined by Lottie O'Donoghue, strategy director at Velo, a specialist B2B agency built on recommendation. Lottie has led marketing client-side in scale-up SaaS and run ABM at Accenture, and now shapes recommendation strategies for Velo's clients across technology, industrial and professional services.
Together they unpack why becoming the recommended choice has shifted from a nice-to-have to a commercial imperative, the real difference between being known and being recommended, and the trust signals that quietly compound into advocacy.
In this episode:
Why the recommended choice now matters more than the visible one
The trust signals that accumulate into recommendation, and the ones marketers most underestimate
How to make the case for investing in influence that conventional attribution can't capture
Where to start if you suspect you're not being talked about in the right rooms
Velo's six Rs of Recommendation Marketing framework

Download Velo's report here: https://www.velo-b2b.com/ebooks/?utm_source=Joel+Harrison&utm_campaign=Recommendation+Marketing
This is a sponsored episode, produced in partnership with Velo.

Lead generation is the discipline B2B marketing relies on most and trusts least. In this episode of Trust & Influence in B2B, Robin Caller, founder and CEO of Leadscale, explains why, and what it would take to fix it.
Most people in B2B know that a good share of the leads changing hands every day are of questionable quality. Few will say so on the record. Robin is an exception. He calls it "a tolerable level of mischief", a grey zone the whole industry has quietly learned to live with, and in conversation with host Joel Harrison he explains why it persists, why he refuses to call it fraud, and how transparency could begin to put it right.
A note before you listen: Robin speaks freely, and not everyone in the industry will agree with all of it. That's rather the point.
In this episode:
– Why lead generation has been B2B's least-trusted discipline for 20 years
– What "a tolerable level of mischief" really means, and why it isn't fraud
– The "blind faith" model and the hierarchy of transparency
– Why marketers tolerate poor-quality leads: the quota trap
– How advertisers are part of the problem, not just the victims
– The provenance questions every buyer should be asking their suppliers
– Why "more leads will not be the answer" in the AI era
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Lead Generation Challenges
05:42 Transparency and Its Role in Trust
08:20 The Ambivalence of Stakeholders
11:26 Blind Faith in Lead Generation Practices
14:23 The Importance of Transparency in Data Collection
17:19 Navigating the Gray Areas of Lead Generation
18:22 Finding Fair Solutions for All Parties
21:37 Advertisers: Victims and Perpetrators
21:54 The Importance of Data Sharing
24:30 Data Decay and Its Impact on Performance
25:16 Trust and Transparency in Data Transactions
25:25 Generational Perspectives in Marketing
27:03 The MQL Mindset and Its Limitations
29:20 Dynamic Qualification of Leads
31:12 Managing Tolerances in Imperfect Systems
32:48 The Future of Lead Generation
36:23 Questions for Better Data Practices
39:56 The Ethical Implications of Data Sourcing
42:42 A Positive Outlook on Future Trends
About the guest
Robin Caller is the founder and CEO of Leadscale, a London-based lead generation and data quality business. He has spent more than two decades in lead and demand generation and is one of the industry's more outspoken voices on data quality, transparency and trust.
Robin on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robincaller/
About the podcast
Trust & Influence in B2B is hosted by Joel Harrison, founder of Joel Harrison B2B. Each episode explores marketing strategy and practice with senior B2B practitioners, researchers and academics.
Joel on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joelharrison/
Enjoyed this episode? Follow the show in your podcast app and leave a rating or review – it helps other B2B marketers find it.

In this episode of Trust and Influence in B2B Marketing, Joel Harrison sits down with Tom Rudnai, Founder of Demand Genius and author of the Dark AI study — a research project that analyzed hundreds of AI prompt clusters across major B2B categories to map where brands are truly winning and losing influence. Tom's central finding is as counterintuitive as it is urgent: the more boldly a brand claims to be the best, the more likely AI is to quietly sideline it during the buyer conversations that shape outcomes. So where is influence actually earned in an AI-led world — and what should B2B marketers be doing differently?
➡️ Tom cuts through the noise with sharp, data-grounded thinking on why AI is not a search channel — and why treating it like one is one of the most costly mistakes in B2B marketing today. He introduces the "Dark AI" concept: the 84% of buyer conversations where no brand gets cited, yet where the problem framing, requirements, and shortlist criteria are already being quietly formed. He unpacks how AI enters exploratory mode at the top of the funnel — and why confident, directive brand language fails at the exact moment influence is most available. He also lays out the concept of information gain, arguing that original research, clear perspectives, and genuinely new knowledge are now the highest-value signals a brand can produce. From convergence patterns to what to actually measure, this conversation will challenge how you think about authority, content, and trust in modern B2B.
Chapters:
00:00 - Introduction: Why Bold Positioning Can Backfire in AI Search
02:08 - Tom's Background and the Story Behind Demand Genius
03:59 - How Buyers Use AI Differently from Traditional Search
06:16 - The Dark AI Study: What It Measured and What It Found
10:30 - AI Visibility vs. AI Influence: The Iceberg Explained
13:18 - Convergence: How AI Narrows Down to a Recommendation
18:38 - Information Gain: The New North Star for B2B Content
22:11 - Why Confident Category Claims Fail in AI-Led Journeys
25:28 - What B2B Marketers Should Actually Be Measuring
30:49 - Patterns Across Categories and AI Models
33:22 - The One Takeaway Every Marketer Should Remember
Follow Tom Rudnai,
linkedin.com/in/tomrudnai
demandgenius.ai
If you care about making B2B marketing more meaningful, useful, and memorable, this conversation is for you. It's honest, reflective, and packed with takeaways that can help elevate your approach to thought leadership—whether you're a content creator, strategist, or brand leader.
🌐Visit Joel Harrison's website to explore exclusive reports, upcoming events, and join the B2B marketing community ➡️ https://www.joelharrisonb2b.com/
💬What do you think comes first—insightful data or a compelling story? Let us know in the comments below.
🔔Subscribe to the channel for weekly insights, interviews, and on-the-ground perspectives from the world of B2B marketing. https://youtube.com/@JoelHarrison-B2B?sub_confirmation=1

📲Follow Joel Harrison and Trust & Influence in B2B across the web:
LinkedIn ▶ https://linkedin.com/in/joelharrison/
Podcast ▶ https://trust-influence-in-b2b.captivate.fm/
Instagram ▶ https://instagram.com/joelharrisonb2b/

#JoelHarrisonB2B, #B2BMarketing, #ThoughtLeadership, #ContentStrategy, #MarketingTrends, #B2BContent, #BrandVsDemand, #Storytelling, #MarketingPodcast, #B2BInsights, #JoelHarrison, #B2BVideos, #B2BStrategy, #AISearch, #DarkAI, #AEO, #BuyerJourney, #InformationGain, #B2BGrowth, #AIMarketing, #DemandGeneration

In this episode of Trust and Influence in B2B Marketing, Joel Harrison sits down with Professor Laura Chamberlain, Professor of Marketing at the University of Warwick and Founder of Think Talk Thrive. They tackle one of the most pressing questions in the profession right now: Do we still need junior marketers—and if so, what do we owe them? As AI absorbs entry-level tasks and graduate vacancies continue to shrink, is marketing quietly destroying its own talent pipeline?
➡️ Laura draws on years of teaching across every level of the profession—from undergraduates to C-suite executives—to challenge the notion that AI can simply replace junior roles. She makes a compelling case that young professionals bring far more than cheap labour: native AI fluency, cultural proximity, fresh thinking, and an eagerness that senior hires can't replicate. She and Joel explore how the erosion of mentorship, rising imposter phenomenon among 18–25-year-olds, and the compression of entry-level roles are creating a long-horizon crisis no single company will feel—until it's far too late. If you're in any way responsible for building or leading a marketing team, this episode will challenge how you think about who you hire, how you develop them, and what the profession stands to lose if we keep pulling the ladder up behind us.

Chapters:
00:00 - Introduction: The Junior Marketer Crisis
02:06 - Laura's Background and Teaching Perspective
03:13 - Is Marketing a Career Young People Choose or Fall Into?
06:29 - What's Preoccupying Students Entering the Profession
09:48 - The Graduate Jobs Squeeze and AI's Role
11:37 - Debunking the "We Don't Need Juniors" Narrative
14:31 - What Young Professionals Uniquely Bring to Marketing Teams
17:20 - The Case for Mentorship and Why It's Breaking Down
23:42 - How Junior Marketers Learn Without Entry-Level Tasks
25:42 - Learning to Be Strategic: The New Junior Skillset
30:06 - Specialists vs. Generalists in Marketing Education
34:51 - Are Young People Better or Worse at Using AI?
39:33 - The Long-Term Cost of Abandoning Junior Talent
41:09 - What Needs to Change: Laura's Call to Action

Follow Laura Chamberlain

https://www.linkedin.com/in/lmchamberlain/
If you care about making B2B marketing more meaningful, useful, and memorable, this conversation is for you. It's honest, reflective, and packed with takeaways that can help elevate your approach to thought leadership—whether you're a content creator, strategist, or brand leader.

🌐Visit Joel Harrison's website to explore exclusive reports, upcoming events, and join the B2B marketing community ➡️ https://www.joelharrisonb2b.com/
💬What do you think comes first—investing in junior talent or letting AI fill the gap? Let us know in the comments below.
🔔Subscribe to the channel for weekly insights, interviews, and on-the-ground perspectives from the world of B2B marketing. https://youtube.com/@JoelHarrison-B2B?sub_confirmation=1

📲Follow Joel Harrison and Trust & Influence in B2B across the web:
LinkedIn ▶ https://linkedin.com/in/joelharrison/
Podcast ▶ https://trust-influence-in-b2b.captivate.fm/
Instagram ▶ https://instagram.com/joelharrisonb2b/

#JoelHarrisonB2B, #B2BMarketing, #ThoughtLeadership, #ContentStrategy, #MarketingTrends, #B2BContent, #BrandVsDemand, #Storytelling, #MarketingPodcast, #B2BInsights, #JoelHarrison, #B2BVideos, #B2BStrategy, #JuniorMarketers, #MarketingTalent, #AIinMarketing, #MarketingEducation, #EarlyCareer, #FutureOfMarketing, #MarketingMentorship, #TalentPipeline

In this episode of Trust and Influence in B2B Marketing, Joel Harrison sits down with Kate Hassler, Group Director of Brand and Comms at Access Group—a $9 billion global B2B software company serving 160,000 customers across Europe, Asia, and the Americas. While headlines scream of AI-driven redundancies at tech giants, Access Group took the opposite approach: hiring more people, running company-wide hackathons, and building a culture where AI is simply business as usual. So what does a genuinely human-led AI transformation actually look like from the inside?
➡️ Kate walks through every stage of Access Group's journey—from pockets of shadow AI usage and no formal governance, to enterprise Claude licenses with custom brand skills built in. She reveals the story behind the now-legendary "AI bus" metaphor that united 9,000 employees around a single, simple idea, and explains how structured playtime - not mandates - turned the biggest sceptics into the most vocal champions. She digs into why Access chose to protect junior talent rather than cut it, how one senior designer reinvented himself as an AI strategist, and why the "human at the start, human at the end" principle is what separates meaningful content from AI slop. Whether you're a marketing leader navigating an AI rollout or just trying to get your team over the line, Kate's blueprint is grounded, practical, and genuinely inspiring.

Chapters:
00:00 - Introduction: AI and the B2B Marketing Workplace
02:12 - Kate Hassler and Access Group Overview
04:03 - Company-Wide AI as a Strategic Priority
07:26 - The London Bus Metaphor: Origin and Impact
11:04 - Why the Metaphor Has Endured a Year On
12:32 - From Shadow AI to Structured Adoption
14:33 - Copilot, Claude, and the Licensing Journey
17:27 - Building Custom Claude Brand Skills
19:00 - Human at the Start, Human at the End
21:14 - Hackathons, Play, and AI Champions
25:37 - Job Security and Empathy-Led Leadership
28:07 - Splash Maker: A Creative Reinvents as Strategist
32:49 - Biggest Lessons from 12 Months of AI Transformation
36:37 - Junior Talent and the Future Pipeline

Follow Kate Hassler https://linkedin.com/in/kate-hassler https://www.theaccessgroup.com

If you care about making B2B marketing more meaningful, useful, and memorable, this conversation is for you. It's honest, reflective, and packed with takeaways that can help elevate your approach to thought leadership—whether you're a content creator, strategist, or brand leader.
🌐Visit Joel Harrison's website to explore exclusive reports, upcoming events, and join the B2B marketing community ➡️ https://www.joelharrisonb2b.com/
💬What do you think comes first—getting your team on board with AI, or putting the governance in place? Let us know in the comments below.
🔔Subscribe to the channel for weekly insights, interviews, and on-the-ground perspectives from the world of B2B marketing. https://youtube.com/@JoelHarrison-B2B?sub_confirmation=1

📲Follow Joel Harrison and Trust & Influence in B2B across the web:
LinkedIn ▶ https://linkedin.com/in/joelharrison/
Podcast ▶ https://trust-influence-in-b2b.captivate.fm/
Instagram ▶ https://instagram.com/joelharrisonb2b/

#JoelHarrisonB2B, #B2BMarketing, #ThoughtLeadership, #ContentStrategy, #MarketingTrends, #B2BContent, #BrandVsDemand, #Storytelling, #MarketingPodcast, #B2BInsights, #JoelHarrison, #B2BVideos, #B2BStrategy, #AIAdoption, #AIInMarketing, #MarketingLeadership, #AITransformation, #FutureOfWork, #CreativeServices, #B2BTech