What's next for Substack? Here’s my interview with the founders
I try not to write about Substack itself on Substack too often—I know it can feel a bit too meta. But as a writer in this space, I’m invested in how the platform evolves, especially as more writers are finding both a community and livelihood here. At a time when authors’ salaries are shrinking, AI technologies are rapidly advancing, and many people I care about in publishing are being made redundant, it’s hard to ignore how much the landscape is shifting.Yesterday, I was offered some interview time with the co-founders of Substack Hamish McKenzie and Chris Best. I don’t interview many people these days—it's been years since I swapped my podcasting and journalism work to focus on writing more fiction and nonfiction books—but Substack is an interesting place, and they had some news to share.Today, Substack announced $100 million in new funding. I don’t know much about the running of big companies—I’m a solo worker, and I like it that way—but I’ve always assumed big investment means big targets and more pressure. Still, this feels like a turning point for the platform. Clearly they’re aiming to go big or go home. During the interview, I kept my focus simple: What does this mean for us writers?In their blog post today: they assure us that they want to help people build “livelihoods based on trust, quality, and creative freedom.” They want to help us protect our “independence, amplify [our] voices, and foster deep and direct relationships.”I asked them some direct questions: What do you do with $100 million investment? How do you plan to grow? What lessons are you taking from what went wrong at Twitter (X)? Are Notes cannibalizing the Substack newsletter model? And ultimately—what are you hoping to achieve longterm? How will you help writers and artists make their stuff and get paid?There are plenty of writers who are more interested in the business side of things than me and will continue to watch it all unfold—I just want to use this platform to write and live my quiet, happy life. But I’m glad I had the chance to have this conversation and share it with you, because I care deeply about the empowerment of writers and artists—and right now, we’re in the middle of something pretty exciting. Hope you enjoy the interview! Big thanks to Hamish and Chris for their time xoxoInterviewing the co-founders of Substack, Hamish McKenzie and Chris Best:EMMA GANNON: First of all, I want to say thank you, because, you know, the media industry was quite demoralising before you guys came along. CHRIS BEST: Thanks, and thank you for using Substack.EMMA: Never a dull day in your offices. On that note, you've got some quite big news.CHRIS: Yeah, we're announcing $100 million in Series C funding led by investors at Bond and The Chernin Group with participation from Andreessen Horowitz and Rich Paul. You know who Rich Paul is? The CEO of Klutch Sports Group.EMMA: As in, Adele's Rich Paul? I saw her in Las Vegas last year, and then went deep into Google. CHRIS: Funny the many different paths to knowing who Rich Paul is. Also Jens Grede who's the CEO co-founder of SKIMS, and Mood Rowghani from BOND is joining the board. Basically, we're just thrilled. It's very exciting. There's something kind of special happening on Substack. We're building the plumbing for it. We're building the tools, technology and network and the bits that enable it, but it's really sort of you and everybody that's using the platform that's willing this thing into the world. Now we have this massive set of resources to make this thing the biggest and best version that it can possibly be.EMMA: Lots of people who follow my newsletter are solo entrepreneurs. They don't have teams, they don't necessarily have targets, they don't build the platforms but want to make things. For you, what happens next? Where do you put the money? I'm assuming you hire more people and make a better platform?CHRIS: Yeah, this gives us a chance to look really long term at what the biggest and best version of this thing that we're building can be. To build a company that can move fast enough and well enough to realise the biggest version of that. And so it means investing in the teams who are building the tools, building the network, helping writers and creators succeed.EMMA: What about learnings from other tech companies and learning from the past? In 2013, I was in Twitter HQ in London with my little mug with the bird on, and having an amazing time. And, well, we all know what happened to that. I was so sad about the decline of a great place. Do you keep that in mind? All of the stuff that other social networks got wrong?CHRIS: Yeah, we try to learn from what other people have done. We've learned what other people have got wrong and what other people have got right. You know, one of our core theories we have at Substack is, ultimately, you want to have a business model that's aligned with the values of what you're building. We make money when writers and creators on Substack make money. They make money when they're doing the work they believe in. I think that's maybe one of the most important lessons we've taken from some of the first generation social networks: they had these really lofty ambitions (and in many cases, quite good goals) but then wound up with these business models, which, on the one hand, were massively successful, but on the other hand, kind of pulled against the interests of the human beings who are using the networks.EMMA: How do you maintain that human element that makes everything so special at the beginning, when something grows? Because on one hand, it's like, I want everyone to know what Substack is, and on the other hand, it's like the cool band that I feel like I discovered, and I don't want people to come in and dilute it!CHRIS: We’re trying to make something that is, essentially, a positive sum game. Some people have this feeling like, oh, man, if some well known person comes to Substack, or somebody else on Substack is really succeeding, that must be taking away from me, because there's this limited set of attention and money and universe. I think people (especially coming from from media over the past few decades) have this feeling of like, Alright, there's a declining share of resources, and I need to grab my piece of it. But the thing that I think is special about Substack is that it's positive, right? As more people come in, more people participate. It's this pie that's actually growing, and the more that it grows, the more benefit it can throw off for everybody. HAMISH MCKENZIE: And the better the pie tastes. It's not just a crappy pie, it's gonna be a delicious, nutritious pie.CHRIS: And it can't be just for cool people. It can't just be for any sort of one group. Not for Substack to be the place that's like, Oh, this is where the cool literary scene is, or this is where the in the know politics people hang out, or this is where the musicians are making something interesting, but rather, for us to build a platform that has enough structure that all those spaces can exist.EMMA: Yeah, that's so well put. I love that. Because even though I'm sure there is a small top percentage of people earning the most on Substack, wouldn't it be amazing if there is the ability for everyone to maybe have a lovely income stream through Substack, if they want to?CHRIS: Yeah. I mean, you want the tools to take payments, and then you want to be able to grow. We sometimes joke that the product proposition for Substack is, we'll do everything for you, except the hard part.EMMA: The hard part as in coming up with the ideas?CHRIS: Making the creative work that is actually valuable.EMMA: It’s also the joyful part.CHRIS: We want to make like a machine that makes everything else magically work.EMMA: The recommendations network within Substack is the best thing. I talk about it all the time. So many of my new readers come from the inner network of Substack, and that's incredible. I have noticed a little bit of a plateau though. I know things can't grow like crazy forever. Are you working on more tools to foster this growth within the Substack eco-system?CHRIS: This is a huge focus for us. This is why the Substack app is a crucial part of the strategy. We think a lot about not just the volume of growth, but the quality of growth. Like, are you getting subscribers that are going to want to read you? Are you getting subscribers that want to pay? You know, the core of the Substack is really the value of that subscription relationship. EMMA: I do love the app, but I also want to make sure that I write and I sit at my desk and I think about things deeply. And I want to sit at my desk and write, and think about the world. On the app, sometimes I do end up mindlessly scrolling, and I'm like, ‘Oh, this is what I wanted to escape from on other social media.’ Do you think Notes takes attention away from the deeper essays or long reads that we want to read?CHRIS: You know, originally the Substack app was just a quiet reader app. Instead of reading things in your inbox, you can read them in this quiet, nice space. That was kind of like a cool tool. But what it didn't do is help you discover new things, and it didn't help you grow. It just meant that you had to go to other places, like Twitter, Instagram, LinkedIn, Reddit, and you were sort of dependent on these other networks to actually fill that need of discovering and reaching out and being part of the discourse. So the real advantage of the Substack Notes feed, is: we want to make something that's fun and engaging, that you actually want to go to and spend some time on—but so that you discover things that you fall in love with, enough that you might want to pay for them.EMMA: I love following you on Notes and what you're up to. You also get so many people being like “add this/do this/change this.” Is it cool to be in a position now where you've got, like, a shopping list of things to upgrade?HAMISH: Yeah, our build list is just going to be determined by the things that people tag us about in Notes. [laughs]EMMA: It must be annoying. [laughs]CHRIS: Well, I always appreciate getting feedback, and I always appreciate people telling us what they're feeling and how it's working. I will say that lobbying for things on Notes is not effective.EMMA: That's a good tip. Is there anything that you're excited about personally right now? To do with Substack?CHRIS: There are lots of things. One thing is this Live product that we've been building. The idea of the Live product is I can have something that basically feels like a FaceTime call. It's as simple as just calling somebody up, but it magically turns into a collaborative Live moment where we can both grow and then have a longform podcast artefact that can go in a podcast app or on YouTube. HAMISH: I'm really excited about the development of this network that is now established. It's not the largest network on the internet, but it's established, and it's growing, and it has so much potential, that could serve as the core for an entirely new cultural ecosystem (a challenger to the ones that have dominated for the last 10 years). We had high hopes for them, but they've ended up—in most cases—disappointing us or dividing us. And so that this is now established, and we get a ton of resources now to go and recruit more and more people to this revolution. That is thrilling to me.EMMA: At the Substack summer party in London, I looked around and it was full of TV presenters and radio DJs and documentary makers and authors, these amazing people. And I think it was Ted Gioia who said “the talent base of Substack is the impressive thing”. Do you want to focus on that retention of these types of people on the platform?CHRIS: Yes, it's very exciting when established names come to Substack, but it's also very exciting when a new generation of people can make those names for themselves and get their start. You know, who did not come from having some famous media job or having some being a bestselling author. If you're a young person right now who has the ambition to make something great, I think it would be very easy to look at the world and think: how can I find my way into that (media) world? EMMA: I think that's so true, and that's why the engine that you're building is so important, because we all know the feeling of starting something and then it's just in a vacuum. No one sees it, no one's engaging with it. So yeah, I love that you’re focusing on making things discoverable for people. HAMISH: Yeah, that's the game. That's the game we're trying to play here. Bring people together, convene about culture, and then help them find each other.EMMA: I saw the Airmail piece about Sophia and Matt in your events team — it very cool, very chic — essentially profiling members of your team. It's basically saying “this is the cool place to be”. I love that Substack do events, is that something you want to continue doing?HAMISH: I think representing the Substack culture and values in the real world, as well as just on the internet (not that the internet's not the real world), but having a place where people come together and enjoy culture together and have these meaningful shared experiences, there's very much a continuation of the ethos that lies at the heart of the platform. Sophia Efthimiatou and Matt Starr (who have been responsible for the incredible events a large number of them, at least in New York) in particular embody the spirit of people who really value culture.EMMA: I sense a deep rooted motivation from you both, I always have, from the start, that this platform feels slightly different. There's an integrity and a really great energy. What is your ultimate goal for Substack? Is it just to continue on being a great place, or do you have a specific moment that you are hoping to reach in the next few years?CHRIS: I think we're living through a period of profound change right now. I think there's new technology coming online that's changing everything. I think there is social and cultural and geopolitical change, and those things come with problems and peril. You know, when you have massive technological shifts, there's always downsides, there's always things that come up, but there are also massive opportunity. I think of it as like building the plumbing that enables a renaissance. We want to build a successful, independent company that can power that thing to be the biggest and best version of itself.HAMISH: It's not about a particular moment. Just every day that the network gets bigger and better and then more and more people can succeed as a result is a next celebration for us. This is a long term work in progress where we're not looking for a specific business outcome or a specific even ecosystem outcome. It is a living and breathing culture.EMMA: Thanks so much for your time. I feel very invigorated at the moment, and a large part of that is the empowerment I feel to be paid for my work in such a direct way via Substack. As much as I love being traditionally published as a writer, I think one day I'm going to look back and think it is kind of crazy that I have to go into a building to record an audiobook, be ‘picked’ as a person that's allowed to do that, and then be paid money in royalties. I don't think we're quite grasping how revolutionary life is for writers/creators right now. I hope you have a good week and look forward to seeing you again soon.HAMISH. Thank you, Emma. Thanks for showing the way for others as well. You're a huge leader on the Substack platform and an advocate for a different way of thinking about things. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit thehyphen.substack.com/subscribe
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