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#41 Dale DeGroff - King of Cocktails, Bars & Restaurants, Rainbow Room, Jazz, NYC History
Dale is a bartender, author, brand owner, and the co-founder of the Museum of the American cocktail. In the late 90’s working at NYC’s Rainbow Rooms Dale was probably the most famous bartender on the planet and has remained one of the best loved bartenders to this day. I sat down with Dale in Manhattan a few weeks ago, looking out over the Empire State Building as the sun went down. The interview was scheduled during a very tight window of opportunity between Dale arriving back from Tales of the Cocktail in New Orleans and me catching a flight back to London. We had just 90 minutes, which wasn’t nearly enough time for a man with some many stories and such a sharp memory.In fact chronologically we barely got to 1990 before I had to turn off the microphones and hot foot it to catch my flight. For that reason, I am calling this interview Part one and hope to sit down with Dale to record the second part next year - and who knows, maybe we will need a third part.What you are about to hear is less a story of Dale’s career and more a tour of New York and Los Angeles hospitality from the late 1950’s through to the 80’s, exploring its jazz clubs, neighbourhood bars, and some of the greatest restaurants and hotels of the 20th century. Dale recounts the musicians that provided the soundtrack, the chefs that designed the cuisine, and the architects that imagined the buildings, all in vivid detail.Perhaps the most significant of these people to Dale, was Joe Baum - one of the United States most significant restauranteurs who introduced the concept of themed restaurant tot he world with no expense spared. Working with acclaimed chefs like Julia Child and James Beard, he opened hundreds of restaurants across America, most notably The Four Seasons Restaurant, Windows of the World at the top of the world trade centre, and the Rainbow Room at the Rockefeller Centre. You’ll hear about other venues during the course of our conversation too.We also discuss the founding and challenging upbringing of the Museum of the American Cocktail, the incredible aesthetic and culinary vision of Joe Baum, the establishment of modern American cuisine, what it was like working at the Bel Air Hotel in the 1980’s, the establishment of The Rainbow Room, and much much more.There are perhaps 100 different names and venues mentioned in this episode and it can get quite confusing. If you’re of the mind to do so I recommend watching the episode on YouTube when you get a chance, as I have provided archive images and captions to help paint the picture.Episode sponsored by Fever-Tree Mixershttps://degroffspirits.com00:00 Introduction03:11 Tales of the Cocktail06:41 Building the Museum of the American Cocktail - Jared Brown & The Rainbow Room, Ted Haigh, History of the Cocktail, Building the Collection, Locations20:09 Dale’s Early Life - Acting, Moving to Manhattan, Packing Bibles*, Restaurant Associates, Howard Johnson’s, Jazz Clubs*, McGlade’s Bar38:11 Working with Joe Baum, Restaurant Associates, Charlie O’s, Newarker, Four Seasons at the Seagrams Building, Modern American Cuisine, James Beard, La Fonda del Sol53:59 The Rainbow Room: Early History, Design55:11 Bel Air Hotel in Los Angeles - Cocktails, 7/11 Mix, Martini Rituals*1:06:32 Aurora Restaurant, Reviving Classic Cocktails, Fresh Juices, Jerry Thomas1:08:11 Building the Rainbow Room - Researching Classics, Recruiting Teams1:18:01 Becoming Famous, Impact on cocktail culture around NYC, Consulting with Keith McNally - Balthazar, Pravda, Lucky Strike
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#40 Alexandre Gabriel - Planteray, Maison Ferrand, WIRD, How Cognac is Made, Jamaican Rum, Barbados, History, Brand Building
Today I am speaking with Alexandre Gabriel. Alexandre is the founder of Maison Ferrand, Citadelle Gin, and Plantation—now Planetary—Rum. Expect to learn how a Burgundian farm boy turned his hand to bartending in New York and then went on to innovate across the categories of cognac, gin and rum. We take a deep dive into the production of Cognac - terroir, grape varieties, distillation, maturation, and discuss the changing market of cognac in France and abroad.From there we turn to gin, covering the birth of Citadelle in 1996 and the challenges of establishing the world’s first modern craft gin distillery. The conversation then shifts to rum—Alexandre’s early encounters, the founding of Plantation, double maturation, Jamaican and Barbadian styles, muck, dunder, and the acquisition of West Indies Rum Distillery. We taste our way through the Rockley still, and high-ester ferments, and discuss geographical indications, tradition and community. We also discuss the decision to change the Plantation brand name to Planetary, and much more.00:00 Introduction & Clarification on Jamaican Rum GI05:16 Origin Stories - Childhood, Farming, Marc de Bourgogne, Growing What You Sell, Wine vs. Brandy, Bartending in NYC16:06 Cognac - Acquiring Ferrand, The Cognac Market18:16 The Cognac Regions, Cognac Houses, Geology & Flavour, Terroir, Yeast30:56 Grape Varietes in Cognac - Ugni Blanc & Colombard - Acidity, Stability, Producing Seasons33:36 Emphasis of Distillation over Fermentation37:18 Maturation in Cognac - Coopers, Elevage, Limousin Oak, Gastronomic Approach, Trancais, Fill Strength51:41 Tasting Ferrand 1840 - Finding old Cognac, Perception of Flavour based on Dilution, Historical Recipes, David Wondrich & Mint Juleps, Ancient Still Designs, The Evolution of Tradition1:04:09 Dosage in Cognac - Methods, Purpose, History - Physiology of sweetness and salt perception, sugar quality1:11:59 Changing Perceptions of Cognac - Cognac highballs, Misconceptions and Understanding1:17:52 Creating Citadelle Gin - Gin Market in 1996, First Craft Gin Distillery of Modern Era, Growing Juniper, Legislation, Plymouth Gin, Ferran Adrià1:32:24 Rum: Alexandre’s Early Experiences with Rum1:34:16 Thierry Gardère and Barbancourt, buying barrels, the origins of Plantation, Navy Rum & Mr Fogg1:42:56 Establishing the Plantation Brand - Nicolas Wine Shop Distribution, Naming the brand Plantation, First products, West Indies Rum Distillery team, Amaretto Cask Rum1:47:04 Double Maturation in Rum - Tropical and Continental - History, Benefits1:52:06 Jamaican Rum GI - Regulation Regarding Overseas Ageing, Myers, Captain Morgan - comparison to Single Malt Scotch2:00:18 Clarendon & Long Pond Distilleries - Southern vs. Northern Distilleries Styles in Jamaica - Historical reasons for styles, Esters, Export2:06:16 Muck, Dunder, Cane Vinegar & Bacteria in Rum Fermentation2:09:12 Acquisition of West Indies Rum Distillery (WIRD) in Barbados - George Stade (Founder), Origins of NRJ2:19:41 Stade’s Rum - Rockley Still: World’s Oldest Rum Still, Restoration, First Distillation2:26:22 What is Barbados Rum? Varieties of Stills, History, Using Seawater in Rum Production2:30:58 Tasting Hogo Monster - 2000ppm Esters2:36:05 Stiggin’s Pineapple Rum, Pushing the Limits2:38:16 Barbados Community, Growing Cane on Barbados, Curacao2:41:49 Next Steps: Cognac grapes, Renovating more stills, Navy Rum R&D, Paraguay2:46:41 Changing from Plantation to Planetary - Language, History, ConsultationEpisode Sponsored by Fever-Tree
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#39 Sandor Katz - How to Ferment, Koji, Sake, Lactic Acid Bacteria, Wild Fermentation, Kefir, Kombucha, Cultures
Sandor Katz is ften called a “fermentation revivalist,” Sandor has spent decades exploring how microbes shape our food, our drinks, our culture, and even our sense of place. He has written a number of book son the subject including Wild Fermentation, The Art of Fermentation, Fermentation as Metaphor, and Fermentation Journeys — the latter chronicling his travels to meet fermentation practitioners across the globe. His bestselling The Art of Fermentation won a James Beard Award and has become the definitive modern guide to the craft. In this conversation, we journey from the very origins of fermentation and the metabolism of alcohol to the staggering variety of fermented foods and drinks in our diets — and why they’re so much more than just flavour. We dismantle common misconceptions around health, freshness, and speed, and dive deep into Sandor’s own path into this microbial worldAlong the way, we unpack the fascinating interplay of bacteria, yeast, and mould, the difference between wild and cultured ferments, and how fermentation can capture the essence of a place, from mezcal to sourdough. We explore everything from lightly fermented tonic beverages and experimental meads to the wonders of koji mould and its transformative enzymes. And yes — we even get into the bad, weird, and downright challenging ferments, from stinky tofu to the notorious surströmming.Whether you’re a brewer, bartender, chef, or simply curious about the invisible life that feeds us, this episode is a deep dive into a living tradition — one that’s as old as civilisation, and as alive as the microbes themselves.02:55 The Origins of Fermentation - Metabolism of Alcohol06:42 The Breadth of Fermented Foods in our Diets - Flavour, Preservation, Texture09:45 Misconceptions About Fermented Food & Drink - Language, Health, Germophobia, Challenging the Notions of Fresh & Fast21:04 Sandor’s Journey in Fermentation - Childhood Encounters, Macrobiotic Diet24:25 Gardening, Fermenting Tomatoes, Other Preservation Techniques, Fermentation Traditions29:50 Microbes: Bacteria, Yeast & Mould - Isolation, Symbiosis, Environmental Conditions, Making Sauerkraut37:14 Pathogenic Bacteria vs. Lactic Acid Bacteria38:17 Wild vs. Cultured Fermentation - Backslopping, Sourdough, Making Yoghurt, Pure Culture Starters, Natto Bacteria47:25 Fermentation as a Manifestation of Place - Mezcal, Bioprospecting for Yeast58:00 Yeast - Efficiency vs. Flavour59:49 Experiments in Alcohol Fermentation - Rice, Chinese Yeast Balls, Sumac Mead, Turmeric Mead1:03:24 Tips for Wild Alcohol Fermentation - Stirring, Sugar, The Myth of Sterilisation, Protocols1:09:00 Lightly Fermented Tonic Beverages - Tepache, Chicha, Country Wines, Orange Blossom Cordial, Meadowsweet Wine, Spruce Tip Wine, Root Beer, Ginger Beer1:14:10 Water Kefir & Kombucha - Biology, Flavour Development, Alcohol Development, Commercialisation of Kefir & Kombucha, Origins1:23:11 Koji Mould - Biology, Applications, Protease Enzymes, Sake, Soy Sauce1:30:25 Use of Fermented ingredients in Bars and Restaurants - Cocktail Hacks, Sustainability, Narrative1:37:41 Life Changing Ferments - Cheese. Stinky Tofu, Conditioning to Fermented Flavours1:40:40 Bad/Weird/Disgusting Ferments - surströmming
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#38 Toby Cecchini - Inventing the Cosmopolitan, NYC Bars, Andy Warhol, Long Island Bar, Guest Shifts
Toby Cecchini is a bartender of some 40 years, the author of Cosmopolitan which remains the best memoir on the life of a bartender, but perhaps best known for inventing the drink by the same name, which defined an era and still attracts love and hate from consumers and bartenders alike. With a storied career spanning decades at some of New York City's most iconic bars, Toby's insights into bar culture, drink creation, and hospitality continue to influence bartenders around the globe.I revisited Toby’s memoir, "Cosmopolitan: A Bartender's Life," ahead of our conversation in New York. It captures a raw and candid snapshot of the New York bar scene of the late '80s and '90s. We being the conversation talking about his shifting perceptions of the book—and the industry itself—over the past two decades.We also address the shifting role of bars as vital social spaces, we discuss cocktail batching, the guest bartending phenomenon, and the blurred lines between bartenders and chefs. Toby also shares some anecdotes from the 80’s including some brutally honest takes on Andy Warhol.Sharp, direct, and refreshingly unapologetic, Toby offers a much-needed perspective for anyone interested in the real nuts and bolts of cocktails and hospitality. From a personal point of view this was a conversation I have been wanting to have for years and it was one of the must fun ones I’ve had on the podcast to date.This episode is sponsored by Fever-Tree MixersTo support the podcast please rate it, subscribe and share. Thanks!02:22 Cosmopolitan the Book - Toby’s Relfections 21 Years Later07:08 The Bar as a Third Place - Purpose, Function, Niches, Democratisation, Performance, Money, Japanese Bars, Hotel Bars18:07 Bartending Then & Now - Staff, Problem Solving, Working the Floor21:18 The Myriad Problems with Guest Shifts24:09 Batched Cocktails vs. A La Minute - Changing perception of a Bartender’s Function, Chef vs. Bartender36:05 Split Basing Cocktails, Rum, Bourbon, Scotch39:56 Creating Unsettling Atmospheres in Bars - 10 Second Theory, Vibes, Music46:10 The Changing Nature of Bartending, Cocktail Renaissance, New York, Public Perception of Cocktails, Nerds53:18 The Psychology of New Yorkers vs. Brits1:00:40 Reminiscing the 80’s & 90’s Bar Scene - Getting Old, Sering Artists (Warhol, Haring, Basquait)1:02:42 Treatment of Hospitality Staff by Famous People, Treatment of Guests by Bartenders, Hospitality1:08:52 Inventing the Cosmopolitan cocktail, The Odeon, Other Claims, Absolute Citron, Formulas & Garnishing1:25:23 Revisiting Cosmopolitan the book1:28:08 The Story of Long Island Bar
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#37 Joy Spence - World's First Female Master Blender, Jamaica Rum, Appleton Estate, Rum Chemistry
Joy is a true legend of the spirits industry. As Master Blender at Appleton Estate in Jamaica, she holds the historic distinction of being the first woman ever appointed Master Blender in the world. A trained chemist, Joy’s remarkable sensory talents and scientific rigour have been instrumental in Appleton’s rise to global prominence, making her one of the most respected figures in rum today.I first met Joy several years ago in Jamaica and have remained fascinated by her pioneering story ever since.In this episode, we delve deeply into what makes Jamaican rum so distinctive, exploring the chemistry behind its bold flavours.We discuss the difference between pot and column stills in respect of rum styles or marques, the Appleton maturation processes, the unique geography of the Appleton Estate, and the detailed chemical processes, including ester formation and higher alcohols and the crucial role of fermentation and ageing in flavour development. We also talk about the newly released Appleton 51 year old - the oldest ever tropical aged rum that has been brought to market and we also discuss the broader challenges facing the rum category, from overcoming misconceptions around quality and value to navigating the complexities of geographical indications On that note - Jamaican Rum GI was established in In October last year, Jamaica’s Intellectual Property Office amended the GI for Jamaica Rum, originally established in 2016, to ban ageing overseas. This move, pushed by the Spirits Pool Association representing Jamaica’s six distilleries, aims to strengthen the GI However, the change sparked controversy from National Rums of Jamaica (NRJ)—which owns Long Pond and Clarendon—because Maison Ferrand relies on ageing rum abroad. Beyond rum itself, Joy shares the extraordinary personal story of how she became Master Blender, overcoming societal expectations and barriers in Jamaica to carve out a groundbreaking career. She reflects openly on mentorship, innovation, her personal blending style, and her hopes for the future of premium rum.Episode sponsored by Fever-Tree00:00 Intro08:15 What Makes Jamaica Rum Special? Pot Stills, Weight, Diversity13:55 Becoming a Master Blender - Challenges, Chemistry, Culture of Rum23:30 Blending Rum - Consistency, Innovation, Joy’Marques, Hearts Collection, Pot vs. Column28:55 Sugar Cane, Molasses, Water, Fermentation, Chemistry of Appleton, Flocking & Stability40:28 Maturation - Fill Strength, Angel’s Share, Refilling, Cask Types43:35 Appleton Estate 51yo The Source, Ultra Premium Rum, Appleton 8yo, Diversity of Rum Styles, Coconut54:06 Jamaica Rum Geographical Indication (GI)58:33 Future of Jamaica Rum, A Global Rum G, Additives, Nutritional Information1:05:48 The Appleton Estate Effect, Visitors Centre1:08:55 Wray & Nephew Rum - Culture, Uses, Wray & Nephew 17
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