Disorder

• Ep112. Tariffs and The Divergence of US and Europe

  Europe and the US are increasingly having differing approaches to everything from free trade to free speech to combatting disinformation to defence to the role of the judiciary. What does that mean for Global Order? Or rather – in our mad mad mad mad world – what does this mean for the extent of Global Disorder?    In this episode, hosts Alexandra Hall Hall and Jason Pack are reunited in person in DC. Jason talks of his misadventures on Capitol Hill – and relates anecdotes he has picked up about the DOGE sledgehammer, Republicans bullying Canadians, and the post-apocalyptic feeling of the place. Jason and Alex anchor the episode around the divergence btw the US and Europe on issues of: Democracy, Misinformation, Corruption and Fraud; National Security/Foreign Policy; and Economy/Tariffs.    They delve into the way the political climate ‘feels’ in the US under Trump's administration, and the differences in judicial accountability of major political figures between the US and Europe – looking at the Le Pen case in particular. Jason expresses his mad admiration of France and Sweden.    Plus: could civil disobedience grow in the US? Are Trump’s policies being decided by non-experts who launder Russian misinformation like Laura Loomer – a new Tiktok influencer Rasputin? And can Kier Starmer be bold enough to help us Order the Disorder? And what can Sir Keir learn from Canada’s Mark Carney who seems naturally gifted at standing up to Trump. So, ELBOWS UP, dear Mega Orderers.    Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Pls Subscribe to our Substack and become a paid member to support what we do - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links:  Read Alex’s interview with Tom Malinowski: https://bylinetimes.com/2025/03/22/why-the-democrats-must-start-fighting-back-against-trump-and-musk/     Read Trump’s firing of NSA chief is ‘rolling out the red carpet’ for cyber attacks: https://www.politico.com/news/2025/04/04/trump-fires-nsa-cyber-command-timothy-haugh-00273859     Read Trump Has Already Botched His Own Bad Tariff Plan https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/04/trump-negotiation-tariff/682300/     For more on Laura Loomer: Far-right activist who met Trump before he fired NSC officials: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly8y27dwgpo   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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• Ep111. Crypto Corruption: Trump 2.0 with Frank Vogl

  Corruption, corruption, everywhere corruption. And no attempt to stop it in sight. As Trump and his cronies get rich from cypto, dismantle government, and propose their companies fulfilled outsourced contracts, the meta analysis of the new administration appears plain and simple: The tariffs, the strategic crypto fund, meme coin, it is all just corruption out in the open.     If it is so plain for all to see, how are they getting away with it?    To find out, Jason is joined by Frank Vogl. Formerly a foreign correspondent for The Times (UK), and then a senior official at the World Bank, Frank set up Transparency International in 1993, and then co-founded the Partnership for Transparency Fund in 1998. These two global organizations are at the forefront in the fight by civil society against corruption. Now, Frank is an Adjunct Professor at Georgetown University and the author of many articles and two books on global corruption – ‘The Enablers’ and ‘Waging War on Corruption’.    In their discussion, Jason and Frank delve into the overt corruption of various decisions early in the 2nd Trump Administration, providing a focus on the role cryptocurrency plays in this corruption. Then, they look at the dismantling of anti-corruption mechanisms, and the transformation of the Republican Party into a vehicle for Trumpism and mafioso crony enrichment of Trump’s allies. Then: they analyse the complicity of Western nations in enabling corruption, and the economic implications of these actions.    Finally, as they Order the Disorder, Frank pushes for the establishment of an international anti-corruption court, and argues that European governments can and should step up to help fight back against this corruption.    Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links:  For more on Frank’s work visit - https://www.frankvogl.com/news     For more on Transparency International - https://www.transparency.org/en/     Get Frank’s book The Enablers: How the West Supports Kleptocrats and Corruption - Endangering Our Democracy - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Enablers-Kleptocrats-Corruption-Endangering-Democracy-ebook/dp/B09JGL62L1/     Get Frank’s book Waging War on Corruption: Inside the Movement Fighting the Abuse of Power - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Waging-War-Corruption-Movement-Fighting/dp/1442218533/   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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• Ep110. Ransomware in our age of Disorder with RUSI’s Jamie MacColl

  On 3 June 2024, Synnovis, a provider of pathology services to the NHS in London, detected the first stages of a ransomware attack. The ransomware quickly spread through Synnovis’ networks, encrypting systems and stealing sensitive data. Not for the first time, a ransomware attack had become a matter of life and death.       The attack, which was later claimed by Qilin, a Russian-speaking cybercriminal gang, was a stark example of how cybercrime has become a national security threat. Attacks against hospitals, schools and businesses of all shapes and sizes have normalised what should be intolerable: cybercriminals, in many cases harboured by hostile states, regularly disrupting and extorting victims, causing misery in the process and creating disorder for the UK economy and society.    To help us understand this challenge, and as part of our ongoing series of episodes featuring top experts from the Royal United Services Institute (RUSI), Arthur was joined by Jamie MacColl, a Research Fellow in Cyber and Tech at RUSI. Jamie's research focuses on the national security implications of cybercrime, including the relationships between hostile states and cybercriminals. He has given evidence on ransomware on more than one occasion to the Joint Committee on the National Security Strategy and also represents RUSI at the Counter Ransomware Initiative, a multilateral grouping of more than 80 countries committed to combating ransomware. Prior to working at RUSI, Jamie worked as a cyber threat intelligence analyst in the private sector. When not working on cybercrime, he is the guitarist in the British band Bombay Bicycle Club.      They discuss the current state of ransomware, its scale and impact, the role played by rogue states such as Russia and North Korea, and the reasons for the lack of coordinated international  progress in combating the issue.   Finally, as Jamie and Arthur order the disorder, Jamie proposes moving our response to ransomware from the current failing law enforcement model, to an intelligence and counter-terrorism led approach.    Producer: George McDonagh   Executive Producer: Neil Fearn     Show Notes Links:    More on the RUSI Disorder partnership - https://www.rusi.org/news-and-comment/rusi-news/rusi-announces-partnership-disorder-podcast     Become RUSI members for more of their brilliant content:  https://my.rusi.org/membership.html     Follow Arthur’s pod Behind The Lines: https://open.spotify.com/show/4bpdB1iEN3irFueS5CMuq5     High-level summaries on ransomware as a national security threat: https://www.economist.com/international/2023/12/31/how-ransomware-could-cripple-countries-not-just-companies     Read RUSI piece The Rise of Ransomware as a National Security Threat:  https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/organised-cybercrime-rise-ransomware-national-security-threat     Read RUSI piece Beyond the Bottom Line: The Societal Impact of Ransomware: https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/beyond-bottom-line-societal-impact-ransomware      Read about the links between cybercrime and state threats:  https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/in-depth-research-reports/issue-brief/untangling-the-russian-web/     Read RUSI article Ransomware: A Life and Death Form of Cybercrime https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/ransomware-life-and-death-form-cybercrime       Read about the impact of ransomware on the UK: https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/occasional-papers/ransomware-victim-insights-harms-individuals-organisations-and-society     Read Ransomware: A Life and Death Form of Cybercrime from RUSI: https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/ransomware-life-and-death-form-cybercrime   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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• Ep109. Sir Bill Browder, Stephanie Baker, and Jason LIVE from the Frontline Club

  Can Britain and the EU step up to Trump's bullying and order the disorder via increasing sanctions and possibly confiscating currently frozen Russian assets and using them to fund Ukrainian defence? This is certainly the question of the day and we at Disorder tackle it via our first live show recorded on March 21 at the famous Frontline Club in London. Jason Pack was joined by Sir Bill Browder and Stephanie Baker, author of Punishing Putin.     The trio discussed the role of sanctions in deterring Putin, and whether the West can finally go further and use seized Russian funds. Plus: Trump’s role – and if Europe (alongside Starmer and Carney) will finally step up to the plate. And they finish with listener questions addressing everything from what happens when Putin dies to if sanctions even work in the first place.    Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Subscribe to our Substack (for free, or get the PAID version to get a discount on our March 21st event with Bill Browder and Stephanie Baker at the Frontline Club): https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links:    Hear our other recent episode with Sir Bill https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/84604876351c72eed9ce64fd4031a343     Hear our previous episode with Stephanie Baker https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/d478c812a95d36c7ee6bf7c7beef4ccf     For more on Stephanie visit https://stephaniebakerwriter.com/     Read Sir Bill’s piece calling for Russian asset seizure:  https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-14418689/UK-Europe-Russia-frozen-billions-Ukraine-noble-cause.html     And his article co-authored with a leading Ukranian lawyer, Yulia Ziskina calling for seizure of Russia’s state assets: https://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2024-11-22/if-trump-cuts-ukraine-aid-the-west-should-seize-russian-assets     Watch United States has ‘abandoned Ukraine’ | Bill Browder https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImN1fFJKHIc  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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• Ep108. (Part 2) How to Combat Extreme Ideas with Julia Ebner

  This is the second part of a two-part interview with Julia Ebner -- the princess of extremist infiltration, the queen of counter radicalization, and author of Going Mainstream: Why Extreme Ideas are Spreading, and What We Can Do About It.    Please listen to Part 1 before coming to this episode.  In this conversation, Julia and Jason focus on how extreme ideas enter the mainstream and the implications of the concept of the ‘Overton Window’ [more on that in the links below] for how the boundaries of acceptable political discourse change as ever more extreme ideas are articulated. Jason pushes Julia to draw on her undercover work among the incel community to explain their worldview and the centrality of the concept of being red-pilled.     And as they Order the Disorder, they discuss the importance of defending expertise in public discourse and Julia proposes an institution that could prevent people from falling into conspiracy theories.    Producer: George McDonagh  Executive Producer: Neil Fearn    Subscribe to our Substack (for free, or get the PAID version to get a discount on our March 21st event with Bill Browder and Stephanie Baker at the Frontline Club): https://natoandtheged.substack.com/    Show Notes Links:  For an explanation of the Overton window visit https://theweek.com/102517/the-overton-window-explained   For more on Julia visit https://www.julia-ebner.com/speaker   For a great video about her life and experiences: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Y4Kv6P6VII   Get Julia’s book ‘Going Mainstream: Why extreme ideas are spreading, and what we can do about it’ - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Going-Mainstream-extreme-ideas-spreading/dp/1804183784   Read Jason’s article, ‘A lizard person’s guide to US election conspiracy theories’ in the New European: https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/a-lizard-persons-guide-to-us-election-conspiracy-theories/   Listen: Episode 77 - The System is Rigged: Conspiracy theories and the revenge of the losers https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/cc41cbf3e1c05fb8a696e0faad151283 This is the second part of a two-part interview with Julia Ebner -- the princess of extremist infiltration, the queen of counter radicalization, and author of Going Mainstream: Why Extreme Ideas are Spreading, and What We Can Do About It.    Please listen to Part 1 before coming to this episode.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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