Ep 140. Could Britain Lead on Migration, Rule of Law, and Public Health?
Britain has a new Foreign Secretary, Yvette Cooper, and this week’s episode dives into the UK’s foreign policy and how it could in theory transcend some of the country’s current political divides. To dig into this topic, Jane and Jason are joined by Michael Stephens, senior fellow at Global Nation and an associate fellow at RUSI. Mike’s new report, ‘Rules Britannia’ is being launched today, and is full of proposals for how Britain can help Order the Disorder. Mike and his co-authors are trying to build a broad consensus across political parties and traditions, to advance ‘a unifying vision of Britain’s role in the world that is grounded in our national values’.
Brits do generally see their country as one that can play a positive role in the world. But the recent years have lost that consensus with rival sloans: from Brexit and “Global Britain”, to the short-lived “tilt to the Indo-Pacific”, then the “NATO-first” approach of the strategic defence review. In short, recent British policy has been somewhat confused by the succession of different governments and foreign secretaries in the past few years. And as results British citizens do not feel current policy reflects their priorities.
Delving into the topic, the panel talk about opportunities for the U.K. to play a leading role in areas that it’s good at: rule of law, international finance and public health. These are the domains where there can be cross-party support rooted in a sense of Britain’s comparative advantages. We also discuss why Ukraine has - so far - been a unifying cause for Brits, with successive prime ministers committed to supporting the country’s independence with military assistance - in stark contrast to the US. And who else can Britain work with in a “global middle-power alliance” to “change the calculations of the rule-breakers that are currently upending the international order” (per the report), while also trying to persuade the US not to abandon that order wholesale? In one of the punchier moments of debate, Jason questions why migration is dominating the headlines and why no one right now in British politics seems to want to make the positive case for attracting the best talent from around the world.
Producer: George McDonagh
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Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow
Show Notes Links:
Britain rules out backing for global defence bank - Reuters https://apple.news/AjpCOumOZTFaB9wBe7VJH1w
Hassan Damluji, Michael Stephens and Anna Hope - Rules Britannia: How a foreign policy guided by fair play can keep Britain safe and promote economic growth https://globalnation.world/publications/rules-britannia-how-a-foreign-policy-guided-by-fair-play-can-promote-economic-growth-and-keep-britain-safe/
Steve Bloomfield, International Editor of The Observer, Since when did the Foreign Office become a demotion? https://observer.co.uk/news/politics/article/since-when-did-the-foreign-office-become-a-demotio
Was this a missed opportunity for Britain to lead on financing defence for democratic allies? Britain rules out backing global defence bank -
https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/britain-rules-out-backing-global-defence-bank-2025-09-04/
Background on today’s angry debate about migration in Britain: The “Boriswave” – how the Conservative government that was elected to “get Brexit done” adopted policies that massively boosted migration (from outside the EU) - https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2025/02/the-boriswave-problem
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Ep 139. Bangladesh and The Great Game for South Asia
With the West’s ability to promote democratic transitions essentially dead, a struggle for influence is unfolding inside Bangladesh. Its traditional alliance with India is being replaced by a scramble for economic influence among China, Pakistan, the US, and Russia – none of whom are genuinely committed to promoting free elections inside the country. If you add in the fallout from the recent India-Pakistan war and Trump’s tarriffs against India for importing Russian crude, you could say that a full-blown great game for South Asia is a foot.
Amidst this backdrop, we return to our investigation of Bangladesh as a microcosm of the Global Enduring Disorder. There, a year ago Sheikha Hasina was removed by student protests. Since then the Nobel Laurate Mohammad Younis has been presiding over a caretaker government, which has pledged it will hold elections in February 2026.
On today’s pod, we will explore how the IG (interim government) in Bangladesh has essentially done all the same things that it accused the previous government of doing- locking up journalists, being repressive, taking over the economy, favouring cronies, and shying away from democratic reforms. They have said the election will be Feb but many analysts we spoke to don’t believe them. We at the Disorder pod think it is equally our role to try to hold Bangladeshi politicians to account to honour their laws and commitments, just as we would do with Trump when he violates the constitution or tries to tamper with Federal Reserve Independence. Being tough on developing world democracies is our sign of respect for them.
To help guide the mega orderers on this journey, Jason is joined by Taufiq Rahim. He is the author of Trump 2.5: A Primer and Middle East in Crisis & Conflict: A Primer, and he publishes longform essays on Geopolitico. Taufiq is a Senior Fellow for the Future Security Program at New America and a Research Fellow at the Mohammed bin Rashid School of Government.
Producer: George McDonagh
Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow
Show Notes Links:
Our previous episode on Bangladesh https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/ZTJiYmNmYmEtN2IzOC0xMWVmLTkxNmMtMGI4YjI4NjI4ZThm?view=apps&sort=popularity
Trump's Kashmir Conundrum - National Review https://apple.news/A1njysA98SYeo0r2UvWiqlw
The China-Pakistan-India tussle over Bangladesh (https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/bangladesh-may-have-ended-its-india-china-tightrope-game-but-it-must-continue-to-tread-carefully/)
The evolution of the US-India strategic partnership (https://www.cfr.org/article/will-trumps-india-tariffs-affect-critical-us-partnership) & https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/indias-diplomacy-dual-alignments-russia-and-us
For more on https://taufiqrahim.com/
Trump 2.5: A Primer -- https://trumpprimer.com/
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Ep 138. Are we prepared for global disasters?
In early August, one of the most powerful earthquakes ever recorded struck a sparsely populated region in Russia’s far east. It triggered a tsunami that started crossing the ocean, heading towards the coastlines of Japan, Hawaii, and the US west coast. Thankfully… due to successful and orderly global co-ordination, millions were evacuated and countless lives were saved.
This week, Jane and Jason discuss the little-known field of ‘disaster risk’. They look at why we need global coordination for it to work properly, what treaties, and international bodies govern international disaster response, and what successful multilateral efforts in the space of ‘disaster risk’ can teach us about how to Order the Disorder in other domains.
Producer: George McDonagh
Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow
Show Notes Links:
For more on the ASRA Conference organisers - https://www.asranetwork.org/
How to save the world report co-authored by Jane https://europeanleadershipnetwork.org/report/how-to-save-the-world-influencing-policy-on-the-biggest-risks-to-humanity/
Florian Jehn on what helps societies and civilisations avoid major crises or collapse - https://existentialcrunch.substack.com/p/some-factors-that-could-help-societies
Lara Mani’s charity, the Global Volcanic Risk Alliance - https://www.globalvolcanoriskalliance.com/
Read Jason’s article on An Orderly World Championships of Backgammon: https://ukbgf.com/an-orderly-world-championships-of-backgammon/
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Ep 137. To Recognise a Palestinian State
It is our favourite time of the month. Jane and Jason take on the mega orderering listeners’ questions – focussing mostly on the Middle East, the Trump-Putin summit, and any rays of ordering hope that might be on the horizon. They look at the unlikely role of UN peacekeeping forces in the West Bank, whether the UK, Australia, and France recognising Palestinian Statehood would help anything, and ways to unblock potential pathways to peace in Gaza. Plus: why Trump wants his summit with Putin, the increasing role of disinformation in democracies and finally, as always we try to Order the Disorder by offer some rays hope as to where there could be some Order in our mad mad mad mad world. Jason proposes that people power might be the answer and teasers his forthcoming book project.
Producer: George McDonagh
Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
And Join the paid substack to hear Jason’s story about Israelis behaving badly in Monaco and how it is a metaphor for their isolation globally and the resentment that that breeds.
Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow
Show Notes Links:
Listen to Jason on BBC Radio Five Live (from 45:40) https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m002gzxy
Read The Limits of Recognition - The Atlantic https://apple.news/AX2K3dnwnQBy2oE9J40g7Eg
The New York declaration of the recent UN conference on a two-state solution in Israel Palestine https://press.un.org/en/2025/pal2250.doc.htm
Read Russia and Ukraine must seek a proper framework for talks, says Juan Manuel Santos https://www.economist.com/by-invitation/2025/07/25/russia-and-ukraine-must-seek-a-proper-framework-for-talks-says-juan-manuel-santos
Read How to End the Russia-Ukraine War by Thomas Graham https://www.cfr.org/article/how-end-russia-ukraine-war
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Ep 136. Trump's High Summer of Disorder: Can Big Global Government actually regulate AI?
Like it or not, Trump and his surreal version of a libertarian patrimonial America is reshaping the world. At least in what the FT’s Janan Ganesh dubs “the high summer of Donald Trump”. I teamed up with Andrew Keen of the ‘Keen On America’ Podcast to discuss Big Tech and the need for Big Government to regulate it. Andrew thinks Government and international treaties can’t be the answer. I disagree thinking that they can.
I argued that while Trump may be achieving tactical wins through short-term disruptions—from ending the Iran-Israel conflict to forcing favorable trade negotiations—this approach fundamentally undermines the strategic international coordination needed to address existential challenges like AI regulation, climate change, and systemic economic and military competition with China. Without coherent global governance structures, I predict, we're sleepwalking into a long-term disordered world where private tech giants wield more power than governments themselves. Trump’s high summer of disorder could degenerate into an apocalyptic winter of our collective discontent.
As we Ordered the Disorder, I advocated for a Missing "NATO for AI" arguing that we desperately need international coordination structures to govern AI development, data storage, and energy infrastructure. Without treaty-based cooperation among democracies, we're ceding control to either authoritarian regimes or unaccountable private companies.
Producer: George McDonagh
Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/
Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow
Show Notes Links:
Listen to Keen On America especially about how AI and Big Tech is reshaping today’s geopolitical fault lines: https://podcasts.apple.com/sa/podcast/ai-is-too-busy-to-take-your-job-the-electrifying/id1710656849?i=1000719075185
Explore the Keen On Substack: https://substack.com/@keenon?
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Gone are the days of coherent international coordination. Rather than working together to solve pressing crises, many of the world’s most powerful states are actively making those crises worse. The result? We’re living through a novel historical era: The Global Enduring Disorder.
The Disorder podcast, in partnership with RUSI, teases out the key principles that connect seemingly disparate challenges: from Climate Change to Tax Havens, to Unregulated Cyberspace, to the Wars in Ukraine, Syria, and Libya. Jason Pack, Associate Fellow at RUSI, and returning cohosts, discuss with world-leading experts, senior diplomats and cultural icons, the fundamental principles lurking behind today’s global issues.
At the conclusion of each episode, they will proposing inventive, win-win solutions to the globe’s most pressing challenges aka, ‘Ordering the Disorder’.
Website: https://disordershow.com/
UK