Welcome to ‘That’s Debatable!’, the weekly podcast of the Free Speech Union. Hosts Tom Harris and Jan Macvarish – both staffers at the FSU – talk about the free...
The former Conservative and UKIP MP, Douglas Carswell, writes in The Telegraph this week, “England is no longer a free society. The old country is descending into authoritarianism.” We begin by pondering whether this is true. As Jan points out, the very fact there is a fight on for free expression is a positive and we should eschew a paralysing fatalism. We move on to discuss The Spectator being reprimanded by the Independent Press Standards Organisation (IPSO) for a piece by Gareth Roberts last May in which he wrote that Nicola Sturgeon “was interviewed by writer Juno Dawson, a man who claims to be a woman, and so the conversation naturally turned to gender”. Michael Gove, the new editor of The Spectator, has written powerfully in protest at IPSO’s ruling in this week’s edition of the magazine. Some important good news is that Bromley Council has adopted free speech protections for councillors in its constitution. The Council’s Code of Conduct now states: “The right to free speech under the law is the basis of democracy and will be upheld at all times and there is no right to be offended by any lawful speech”. The FSU has been working for months with Bromley councillor Simon Fawthrop to draft these protections. There is further good news reported in The Times that the Chairman of the College of Policing, Lord Herbert of South Downs, has demanded a complete rethink on non-crime hate incidents (NCHI). As he says in the article, “We want to apply a commonsense approach, where the police officer would receive a complaint and they would be able to say, ‘We’re sorry, we can understand you find that offensive but it’s not a matter for us’”. We couldn’t agree more! Finally, we report back on this week’s annual online review which saw Ayaan Hirsi Ali declared our ‘free speech hero’ for 2024 and Sir Keir Starmer our ‘free speech zero’.
We wish all our listeners and viewers a very Happy Christmas and a 2025 full of free expression.
‘That's Debatable!’ is edited by Jason Clift.
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42:52
Long Live the Refuseniks!
We start with some good news. As reported in The Telegraph, Cambridge Constabulary have announced that they will be taking no further action against the FSU member who used the word “pikey” on the phone to the police while reporting two men who were threatening her and her family. Meanwhile, “Rainbow Refuseniks” is the name given to a growing group of footballers who have either refused to wear rainbow-coloured jerseys and armbands to signify their support for the Football Association’s Rainbow Laces campaign or have written religious messages on them. To date, they include Ipswich Town captain Sam Morsy, Crystal Palace captain Marc Guéhi and Manchester United defender Noussair Mazraoui. Our Executive Communications Officer, Freddie Attenborough, has written more broadly about the football world’s war on free speech in The Critic. We move on to discuss the state of debate in the UK, following a debate at the Oxford Union, which is now being investigated by counter-terror police. The motion was: “This house believes Israel is an apartheid state responsible for genocide”. As Jan explains, the video of the debate is an unedifying spectacle but it is also revealing, especially in a context where certain speakers were claiming they ought not even be there to debate the issue. By contrast, FSU member Connie Shaw is heroically standing up for free speech, having been suspended from hosting a student radio show on Leeds Student Radio after she was accused of breaching her student union’s code of conduct. This followed her expressing gender critical views and interviewing controversial figures for her podcast. The Telegraph reports how the FSU is helping Connie to appeal the student union’s decision and has called for the investigation findings to be quashed. We stay within the FSU family to discuss the research of Ben Jones, our Director of Case Management. Ben spoke at the National Secular Society’s members’ day about the experiences of ex-muslims in the UK. As he said in his talk, his findings were shocking and “shouldn’t happen in any country, let alone the UK”. Finally, FSU members have just a few hours left to sign-up for our Online Christmas Review on Tuesday 10th December (register using the link in the weekly newsletter).
‘That's Debatable!’ is edited by Jason Clift.
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51:15
Unpopular Opinions - Academic Freedom in New Zealand
We were delighted to welcome Dr James Kierstead onto ‘That's Debatable!’ to discuss his latest report, “Unpopular Opinions: Academic Freedom in New Zealand”. James is a Senior Fellow at the New Zealand Initiative, where his work focuses on universities, free speech, and democracy. We begin with a recap of a story that hit the UK press back in 2021 about academics who were threatened with expulsion from the Royal Society of New Zealand for criticising plans that would see Māori knowledge added to the school curriculum. Controversy around race issues, especially those relating to the ‘Treaty of Waitangi’ continue to exert a chilling effect on free expression – one testimony in the report notes that “Questioning anything about the radical current interpretation of the Treaty of Waitangi is likely to be career ending”. Another area explored in detail within the report is the influence of the Chinese Communist Party (‘CCP) on academic freedom, with recent incidents revealing how higher management in New Zealand’s universities appear to be afraid to offend the Chinese Government. In a discussion on taboos – and the double standard around taboos – we briefly bring the focus back to the UK and the troubling call this week by Labour MP Tahir Ali for the introduction of blasphemy laws. In his conclusion, Dr Kierstead notes that if New Zealand can rediscover its historical defence of academic freedom, there is an opportunity for New Zealand’s universities to steal a march on the larger and better-resourced university systems it tends to compete within the US, UK, Canada and Australia. Finally, a reminder to listeners and viewers of our Comedy Unleashed event on 17th December – tickets are selling fast!
‘That's Debatable!’ is edited by Jason Clift.
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57:11
Censor Like It's 1979
Jan was fortunate enough to join ‘Academics for Academic Freedom’ (AFAF) at their annual conference on Saturday 23rd November and we begin by discussing how important that organisation has become in emboldening academics to fight for their freedom in the university context. The public row around Non Crime Hate Incidents (NCHI) has continued to rumble on, despite Essex police dropping its investigation into Allison Pearson. The Telegraph this week reported that Yvette Cooper is committed to reversing the Tories’ decision to downgrade the monitoring of the incidents, specifically in relation to anti-Semitism and Islamophobia, so that they can be logged by police. The think tank ‘Policy Exchange’ has now added its voice to the debate with the release of a new report entitled, “Non-Crime Hate Incidents: A chilling distraction from the public’s priorities on policing”. We move on to discuss an item in The Guardian, which highlights how an anti-racism campaigner’s London book events had to be cancelled amid the threat of far-right violence, a story that shows the need for free speech consistency. Next up, as reported in The Times, a consultation from the Bar Standards Board (BSB) which proposes bringing barristers’ equality obligations into line with solicitors in England and Wales has triggered a row with the Bar Council. We recently hosted a panel of eminent legal experts to grapple with the merits of the Bar Standards Board’s proposals, which you can watch here. We have also written a response to the consultation, which can be found here. We end with the news that a poster promoting Fern Brady’s stand-up tour has been ruled as ‘offensive’ to Christians by the Advertising Standards Authority. The debate resembles many of the arguments that were played out in 1979 following the release of ‘Life of Brian’.
‘That's Debatable!’ is edited by Jason Clift.
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41:18
Watch It!
Allison Pearson’s visit from Essex Police on Remembrance Sunday has reignited the debate around the state of free expression in the UK. While some confusion remains around the precise details of that doorstep conversation, it has nevertheless thrown the thorny issue of ‘Non-Crime Hate Incidents’ (or NCHI) sharply back into the public eye. The Times, for example, has discovered that police have been recording NCHI against children as young as nine, this despite paragraph 36 of the new Code of Conduct explicitly recommending them not to do so. Our Informative Guide sets out how you can find out if your local police force has recorded an NCHI against you and what you can do to get it deleted – log in to your FSU account to take a look. Control of language continues across the country and we were dismayed to read in The Telegraph that the Welsh government’s anti-racism action plan aims to change the beliefs and behaviour of the white majority. Official reports have even advised creating “dog free areas” to boost inclusion. We move on to discuss an important article by two Oxford students who each testify to the endemic fear of cancellation across the student campus. This follows the tragic death of Alexander Rogers and the inquest’s ruling that the student was the victim of “pervasive cancel culture”. Professor Kathleen Stock has written a very thoughtful piece in Unherd on how universities are teaching students to shame. Finally, Jan discusses Wendy Houston’s show, “Watch It!” and reports on Sunday’s march on Wembley for the teenage female footballer banned following a transgender row.
‘That's Debatable!’ is edited by Jason Clift.
Welcome to ‘That’s Debatable!’, the weekly podcast of the Free Speech Union. Hosts Tom Harris and Jan Macvarish – both staffers at the FSU – talk about the free speech controversies that have erupted in the past week and interview some of the main protagonists in those dramas. Edited by Jason Clift. Please like, subscribe and share. Thank you.