Jesus Work in Jesus Ways

What happens when leadership systems are driven by unspoken fears, hidden expectations, and anxiety? In Part 2 of this conversation, host Mark Stirling (Director of the MA in Contemporary Christian Leadership at Oak Hill College) continues his discussion with Dr. Tasha Chapman (Covenant Seminary).
Dr. Chapman unpacks how groups and ministry organisations function as interconnected systems—where an anxious leader can inadvertently stoke fear, create triangulation, and silence constructive disagreement. Together, they explore why popular business metaphors like "getting the right people on the bus" often backfire in Christian leadership, how self-differentiation rooted in the gospel brings security, and why healthy teams must embrace necessary conflict to truly learn and thrive.
Book Now for Building Resilience for Ministry - 4th February 2027
00:00 – Introduction & Part 1 Recap
01:27 – Guest & Host Introductions: Mark Sterling & Dr. Tasha Chapman
03:12 – Understanding Ministry Organisations as Interconnected Systems
06:00 – The Hidden Mobile: Expectations, Interests, and Emotional Dynamics
09:18 – Moving from the "Dance Floor" to the "Balcony"
12:28 – Why "Getting People Off the Bus" Creates Systemic Paralysis
15:46 – Theological Warning: How Anxious Systems Deny Gospel Grace
16:33 – Mid-Roll Announcement: Live Day Conference at Oak Hill College
17:22 – How Anxious Leaders Operate: Blame, Shame, and Command-Control
20:00 – What Happens to Dissenters in Fearful Ministry Systems
24:39 – Unpacking Triangulation: Why Dysfunction Spreads After Meetings
29:12 – The Gospel Cure: Emotional Literacy & Identity in Christ
35:24 – What is Self-Differentiation? Standing Before the Face of God
40:45 – Why Necessary Conflict is Vital for True Ministry Growth
47:45 – "Failing Forward" in Grace: Final Encouragement for Leaders

In-Person Day Conference: Building Resilience for Ministry
Speaker: Dr. Tasha Chapman
Date & Time: Thursday, 4th February 2027 | 10:30 AM – 3:30 PM
Location: Oak Hill College, London
Details: An interactive gathering exploring how to lead healthier, sustainable ministries for the long haul. Every participant receives a copy of Tasha Chapman's book Resilient Ministry, plus lunch on campus. Places are limited.
Register now to reserve your spot.

Featured Books & Programs
Books:The Politics of Ministry: Navigating Power Dynamics and Negotiating Interests by Bob Burns, Tasha D. Chapman, and Donald C. Guthrie
Resilient Ministry: What Pastors Told Us About Surviving and Thriving by Bob Burns, Tasha D. Chapman, and Donald C. Guthrie

Master of Arts in Contemporary Christian Leadership at Oak Hill College, London.

Why do churches and Christian organisations so frequently appoint leaders who end up causing harm? In this episode of Jesus Work in Jesus Ways, host Mark Stirling sits down with Dr Tasha Chapman for Part 1 of a candid two-part conversation on emotional intelligence, narcissism, and true redemptive leadership.
Tasha reveals how rewarding high IQ and technical expertise over emotional health leads to the trap of "hero leadership"—and why true Christian leadership is about gathering people into Christ's shalom rather than having all the answers.

Book Now for Building Resilience for Ministry - 4th February 2027
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💡 KEY TAKEAWAYS
- EQ vs. IQ in Ministry: Why intellectual brilliance without emotional self-awareness creates dangerous leadership blind spots.
- The Narcissism Trap: How business and church cultures reward command-and-control personalities and why boards often protect abusive leaders.
- "Noses, Noise, and Nickels": Why relying on easily countable metrics undermines long-term gospel growth and fosters organisational anxiety.
- Self-Awareness as Formation: Why deep personal self-knowledge (and counselling) is essential for anyone leading in God's church.
- Disappointing People Well: Understanding leadership as "the art of disappointing people at a rate they can absorb" to break the saviour complex.
- Union with Christ: Why resting in our identity in Jesus is the ultimate antidote to fear-driven, performance-based leadership.

📚 RESOURCES & BOOKS MENTIONED
- Resilient Ministry: What Pastors Need to Survive and Thrive by Bob Burns, Tasha Chapman, and Donald Guthrie
- The Politics of Ministry: Navigating Power, Dynamics, and Relationships by Bob Burns, Tasha Chapman, and Donald Guthrie
- Explore Leadership Training at Oak Hill College: [MA in Contemporary Christian Leadership](https://www.oakhill.ac.uk)

In-Person Day Conference: Building Resilience for Ministry
Speaker: Dr. Tasha Chapman
Date & Time: Thursday, 4th February 2027 | 10:30 AM – 3:30 PM
Location: Oak Hill College, London
Details: An interactive gathering exploring how to lead healthier, sustainable ministries for the long haul. Every participant receives a copy of Tasha Chapman's book Resilient Ministry, plus lunch on campus. Places are limited.
Register now to reserve your spot.
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👥 ABOUT THE HOST & GUEST
- Host: Dr Mark Stirling is the Director of the MA in Contemporary Christian Leadership at Oak Hill College, London.
- Guest: Dr Tasha Chapman formerly taught at Covenant Theological Seminary, where she led the Doctor of Ministry program, and currently lectures as an Associate Teacher for Oak Hill College.
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What does it actually look like to lead like Jesus in a world obsessed with titles, power, and status?
In this episode of Jesus Work in Jesus Ways, host Mark Stirling sits down with Malcolm McGregor—former International Director of SIM (one of the world's largest mission organisations), architect, and long-time missionary leader in Nigeria and Ethiopia.
Malcolm shares his remarkable story of navigating ministry under a Marxist government in Ethiopia, processing deep personal trial and childlessness in Nigeria, and intentionally stepping down from major executive roles to make room for the next generation of global leaders. If you want to understand true servant leadership, the importance of succession, and how to know your own "sell-by date" in ministry, this conversation is essential listening.

Key Topics Covered
Lessons from Famine & Marxist Rule: Serving in Ethiopia in the 1980s and running student ministries under lockdown.
Personal Trial & Conviction: How personal loss in Nigeria reshaped Malcolm and his wife Liz’s view of rights versus privileges before God.
Knowing Your "Sell-By Date": Why great leaders know when it is time to step aside and pass power to others.
Building Culturally Diverse Teams: How Malcolm restructured SIM's global leadership team to reflect the global Church.
God in the Details: Why laying the drainage system for a building in Addis Ababa served as a lifelong metaphor for quiet, faithful leadership.
Advice to 25-Year-Old Leaders: The two non-negotiable principles every young leader needs to know.

Episode Timestamps
00:00 – Intro to Malcolm McGregor & Missionary Background
01:06 – Welcome & Oak Hill’s Masters in Contemporary Christian Leadership
03:36 – Architecture & Student Ministry in Marxist Ethiopia
06:20 – Lessons from Nigeria: Hardship, Healing, and Surrender
18:50 – Leadership Conviction: Knowing Your "Sell-By Date"
22:00 – Taking the Reins at SIM International
25:20 – Resigning Power to Build a Truly Diverse Global Team
31:35 – Why Christian Leaders Struggle to Let Go of Status
35:00 – "God is in the Details": Drains, Architecture, and Unseen Work
37:45 – Two Essential Pieces of Advice for Young Leaders

About Malcolm McGregor
Malcolm McGregor trained as an architect before spending decades in cross-cultural mission leadership alongside his wife, Liz. He served in Nigeria and Ethiopia before becoming the UK Director and later the International Director of SIM (Serving In Mission) for 10 years. He continues to serve and mentor Christian leaders in Scotland and around the world.

About Jesus Work in Jesus Ways
Hosted by Mark Stirling (Program Director for Oak Hill College's Masters in Contemporary Christian Leadership), this podcast features conversations with experienced Christian leaders exploring how to do God's work in God's ways.

Learn more about Oak Hill College
Explore the MA in Contemporary Christian Leadership
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What happens when your "front-stage" leadership gifts outpace your "back-stage" life?
In this deeply raw, moving, and disarmingly honest conversation, host Mark Stirling sits down with long-time friend, author, and pastor Zack Eswine. In his thirties, Zack appeared to have it all—a flourishing ministry trajectory and a national book award for preaching. But beneath the accolades lay a performance-driven mindset that was stripped away through a painful, "Job-like" season of divorce, job loss, and sudden single fatherhood.
Zack shares his journey from performing for God to actually meeting the living person of Jesus in the middle of laundry, crockpot meals, and ordinary daily graces. Together, Mark and Zack explore:
Deconstructing "Frowning" Holiness: How rediscovering God’s delight in beauty, art, and creation changes the way we view ministry.
The Trap of the "Hero Leader": Moving away from fast, famous, and large-scale success toward faithful, long-term presence.
Grace in the Wilderness: How a local Chinese church and loyal elders reframed friendship, grace, and Christian community during Zack's darkest moments.
Words for the Weary Leader: What Zack would tell his 25-year-old self about rest, ambition, and identity.
Whether you are in pastoral ministry, church leadership, or simply feeling burned out from the pressure to perform, this episode offers a gentle, necessary invitation to rest in the truth that you are already beloved.

Key Quotes from the Episode
"Everything around you wants you to do large things famously as fast as you can for God. But most things that truly matter in life require small, mostly overlooked graces over a long period of time." — Zack Eswine
"The truest thing about you is that you are loved by God, and he delights in the human person he created you to be. There is nothing more you need to prove to Him." — Zack Eswine

Resources Mentioned & Connect
Zack's Newest Book is out Now: Wiser With Jesus
Other books by Zack Eswine: Sensing Jesus: Life and Ministry Beyond Our Limitations and Resilient Faith
Learn More About Zack's Work: Sage Christianity & Riverside Church
Explore Leadership Training at Oak Hill College: MA in Contemporary Christian Leadership
About Jesus Work in Jesus Ways
Jesus Work in Jesus Ways is an initiative of Oak Hill College, hosted by Mark Stirling (Director of the MA in Contemporary Christian Leadership). This podcast features candid conversations with leaders whose life and ministry embody the character, posture, and ways of Jesus.

Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and leave a review if this conversation encouraged you!

How do Christian leaders navigate deep church conflict, avoid the trap of self-deception, and sustain genuine joy over a lifetime of ministry?
In this episode, host Mark sits down with retired Baptist pastor, author, and former national Ministry Advisor Andrew Rollinson. Drawing from over 40 years of pastoral leadership—from early mission work in Uganda to pastoring in Newcastle, Morningside, and St Andrews—Andrew shares battle-tested wisdom on what it takes to do Christ's work in Christ's ways.
Together, they explore the core themes of Andrew’s book, Conversations by the Sea, focusing on the vital importance of emotional self-awareness, non-anxious leadership, and establishing robust accountability in ministry.
Key Takeaways & Topics Covered:
Navigating Church Conflict: Why conflict isn't always morally negative, how to build trust, and the creation of "Peaceful Transformation Teams" using Anabaptist Bridgebuilders principles.
Leading as a Non-Anxious Presence: The power of doing the basics well, listening before leading, and avoiding power-driven decision-making.
Finding Power in Weakness: How tragic and dark moments in ministry reveal God’s grace and shape pastoral collegiality.
Theology as Worship: Why reading deep, challenging theology enriches daily pastoral care and guards against "hurry sickness."
Self-Awareness vs. Self-Deception: Why self-awareness and security in God are the two most critical traits for leaders, and how to spot our own blind spots.
Authentic Accountability: Moving beyond surface-level accountability to intentional annual reviews, counseling, and invites for candid feedback.
Books & Resources Mentioned:
Conversations by the Sea by Andrew Rollinson
The Undefended Leader trilogy by Simon Walker
When Narcissism Comes to Church by Chuck DeGroat
I Told Me So: Self-Deception and the Christian Life by Gregg A. Ten Elshof
About Oak Hill College & Jesus Work in Jesus Ways
Jesus Work in Jesus Ways is a podcast by Oak Hill College, created to equip pastors, church leaders, and believers to serve Christ with his heart, wisdom, and character.
Learn more about Oak Hill College
Explore our MA Leadership Course
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