Leaving Egypt Podcast

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In this episode, Al Roxburgh and Jenny Sinclair meet for a second time with Mark Lau Branson about how his church is working out the nature of leadership.
A small, multicultural congregation in Los Angeles, they comprise a cross section of America - from university professors to immigrant day workers. Following the catastrophic urban wildfires of 2025 and amidst ongoing immigration issues that confront them daily, this community is undergoing a profound reorientation. Embracing a new imagination, they are allowing the gifts that the Spirit has given them through one another to shape them as a people. Shifting from an inward focus on the life of the church, towards the outward-facing question of how to join with God in their broken and shattered communities, they are seeing a more “bottom-up”, shared leadership emerging, and from this, meaningful relationships of solidarity in the neighbourhood. In the context of Luigino Bruni’s episode #60 it is clear that what is happening here is the discerning of “charism” among the people. Mark’s story describes a form of leadership quite different from the usual approaches of those with oversight of a congregation. Rather than “vision casting” and “strategizing” from above, this empowering, shared approach is about listening, prayer, and discernment, calling forth, naming and supporting the gifts of the people in liturgy, formation and worship - and especially outside church in their communities.  
Mark Lau Branson has been the Homer L. Goddard Senior Professor of the Ministry of the Laity and has taught at Fuller since 2000. His current work focuses on Ph.D. students. Ordained at San Francisco Christian Center, an African American Pentecostal church, he has served on the pastoral teams in United Methodist and Presbyterian churches and has written many books. Mark has worked with several agencies active in education, community development, and community organizing, and continues to serve as a consultant and speaker. He is a member of the national Advisory Board of the nonprofit CHERP Solar Power, and has served on the boards of the Institute of Urban Initiatives, the Ekklesia Project, and the Academy of Religious Leadership. He is active at La Fuente Ministries, a bi-lingual, multicultural church in Pasadena, California, USA.

For Mark Lau Branson: 
https://www.fuller.edu/faculty/mark-lau-branson/
Churches, Cultures, and Leadership: A Practical Theology of Congregations and Ethnicities (with Juan Martínez)
Leadership, God’s Agency and Disruptions: Confronting Modernity’s Wager (with Alan Roxburgh) 
Memories, Hopes, and Conversations: Appreciative Inquiry, Missional Engagement, and Congregational Change
Starting Missional Churches

For Alan J Roxburgh:
http://alanroxburgh.com/about
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/alan.roxburgh.127/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecommonsnetwork
Books
Forming Communities of Hope in the Great Unravelling: Leadership in a Changing World (with Roy Searle)
Joining God in the Great Unravelling
Leadership, God’s Agency and Disruptions
Joining God, Remaking Church, Changing the World: The New Shape of the Church in Our Time

For Jenny Sinclair:
Substack: https://t4cg.substack.com/s/from-jenny-sinclair
Website: https://togetherforthecommongood.co.uk/from-jenny-sinclair
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jenny-sinclair-0589783b/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/T4CG
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TogetherForTheCommonGoodUK
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/t4cg_insta/


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In this episode Al Roxburgh and Jenny Sinclair meet with Rob Stewart, a true pilgrim grounded in the hope of God’s kingdom. Rob recognises that modern economies are not only unjust but also deeply harmful, isolating people and working against the grain of humanity. Rob is convinced that another way is possible. Believing that human beings are “hard-wired for connection,” a moment of metanoia led him to leave behind a thirty-year business career and embark on a journey into relational economics. He went on to establish a solar energy cooperative which not only provides clean, affordable energy but also invites people into a shared story of participation. Rob’s pilgrimage has been shaped by highs and lows, inspired by contemplative prayer, and guided by a humble surrender to the will of God.
Rob Stewart is the Founder and Executive Director of Collective Power Boroondara, in Melbourne, Australia - a community energy cooperative advancing an equitable transition to a sustainable economy. Linked with others in the field of relational economics, he participates in the Francesco Collaborative and other international networks focused on ethical business practices. Formerly, he studied for the priesthood but things took an unexpected turn when he met his future wife. He went on to serve in the family retail business, a company founded by his father on the basis of Catholic Social Teaching principles. He lives in Melbourne with his wife and three adult sons.
Links
For Rob Stewart
https://collectivepowerboroondara.org/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/rob-stewart-a0b2551ab/
https://francescocollaborative.org/
Also mentioned in the episode:
A Personalist Manifesto by Emmanuel Mounier
https://www.cpa.coop/
For Alan J Roxburgh:
http://alanroxburgh.com/about
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/alan.roxburgh.127/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecommonsnetwork
Books
Forming Communities of Hope in the Great Unravelling: Leadership in a Changing World (with Roy Searle)
Joining God in the Great Unravelling
Leadership, God’s Agency and Disruptions
Joining God, Remaking Church, Changing the World: The New Shape of the Church in Our Time
For Jenny Sinclair:
Substack: https://t4cg.substack.com/s/from-jenny-sinclair
Website: https://togetherforthecommongood.co.uk/from-jenny-sinclair
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jenny-sinclair-0589783b/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/T4CG
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TogetherForTheCommonGoodUK
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/t4cg_insta/


Get full access to Leaving Egypt at leavingegyptpodcast.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode, Al Roxburgh and Jenny Sinclair welcome back Luigino Bruni for a second conversation, this time exploring how churches and religious orders confront crisis. An economist and scholar of organisational life, Bruni reflects on what is at stake when Christian communities lose confidence. Attentive to the extent that the methods of management culture have become defaults for many church systems, he observes how communities are losing touch with the core of what it means to be God’s people. At the heart of a Christian community is the presence of Jesus among the people of God, and the task of those entrusted with care and oversight is to help their people discern the movements of the Spirit, both among them, and in their local communities. Bruni counsels that this is not the work of outside consultants bringing business models into the church. He cautions that outsourcing can lead to confusion and weaken the heart of communal life. Instead, he believes that in the midst of our great unravelling, churches and communities facing difficulty have a special calling. He insists that “crisis itself has precious things to teach”, and that at such times, the work of a community is to embrace practices of discernment that are rooted in the confidence that Christ is among them making all things new.  
Professor Luigino Bruni is an economist, an historian of economic thought and a scholar of organisational life. He is Professor of Political Economy at the Lumsa University in Rome, a public non-state Italian university formed on Catholic principles. Here he also coordinates the Phd Programme in Civil Economy. His scholarship of economics extends to biblical commentaries on the history of economic thought as well as to the religious nature of capitalism. Professor Bruni is involved in many grassroots projects devoted to developing a new economic paradigm: he is International Co-ordinator of the Economy of Communion project, a Board member of the Economy of Francesco Foundation and a member of the international Focolare movement. In addition, he is Editor-in-Chief of the International Review of Economics, an active columnist and author of many books.
Links
For Luigino Bruni
https://www.luiginobruni.it/en/
https://www.luiginobruni.it/it/ec-ea.html
https://francescoeconomy.org/eof-board/
https://lumsa.it/it/docenti/luigino-bruni
https://www.edc-online.org/it/header-pubblicazioni/luigino-bruni.html
https://www.luiginobruni.it/en/ec-ea/communities-are-not-businesses-managerial-culture-extinguishes-charisma.html
https://www.luiginobruni.it/en/ec-ea/mother-superior-or-leader-the-convent-is-not-a-business.html
Books
The Genesis and Ethos of the Market
Civil Economy: Another Idea of the Market co-authored with Stefano Zamagni
The Wound and the Blessing: Economics, Relationships, and Happiness
Capitalism and Christianity: Origins, Spirit and Betrayal of the Market Economy
The Economy of Salvation: Ethical and Anthropological Foundations of Market Relations in the First Two Books of the Bible
The Economics of Values-Based Organisations: An Introduction
Further books in English listed here
https://www.luiginobruni.it/en/books.html
For Alan J Roxburgh:
http://alanroxburgh.com/about
https://www.facebook.com/alan.roxburgh.127/
https://www.facebook.com/thecommonsnetwork
Books
Forming Communities of Hope in the Great Unraveling: Leadership in a Changing World (with Roy Searle)
Practices for the Refounding of God’s People: The Missional Challenge of the West (with Martin Robinson)
Joining God in the Great Unraveling
Leadership, God’s Agency and Disruptions
Joining God, Remaking Church, Changing the World: The New Shape of the Church in Our Time
For Jenny Sinclair:
https://t4cg.substack.com/s/editorials
https://t4cg.substack.com/s/from-jenny-sinclair
https://togetherforthecommongood.co.uk/from-jenny-sinclair
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jenny-sinclair-0589783b/
https://x.com/T4CG
https://www.facebook.com/TogetherForTheCommonGoodUK
https://www.instagram.com/t4cg_insta/


Get full access to Leaving Egypt at leavingegyptpodcast.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode, Al Roxburgh and Jenny Sinclair talk with Cam Roxburgh about his thirty-plus years forming the Neighbourhood Church in greater Vancouver. Cam’s story is one of faithful dwelling—listening to the Spirit and discerning what God is doing in the community. The conversation traces Cam’s journey as a church leader, marking his shift away from what he calls “the era of projects” towards an approach centered on practices rooted in prayer, discernment and local relationships. He challenges forms of church leadership that prioritise strategy, methods, and quick outcomes - the “just add water and stir” view of the world. Instead, Cam advocates for “doing life with neighbours.” His steadfast commitment to place, despite many obstacles, has borne remarkable fruit: deep community trust, transformed lives, and even a measurable impact on the local economy. Al and Jenny explore how God has used Cam’s long, patient journey to bring into being things no one could ever have imagined - a testament to his persistent patience and passionate desire to hear the Spirit even in the midst of real discouragement.
Cam Roxburgh is Team Leader of The Neighbourhood Church in Burnaby, Vancouver. Here, he has been instrumental in transforming church property into a major affordable housing and community amenity development. He also leads Forge Canada and is Vice President of Missional Initiatives for the North American Baptists. Cam is driven by a love for the church and a desire to see people fulfil a Jesus-shaped life as disciples dwelling in their neighbourhoods. Cam is also co-founder and co-leader of the Commons Cooperative, a transatlantic group of pioneers and practitioners across denominations who have come together to “join in with God to form communities of hope” in the places people call home. Cam and his wife Shelley live in Surrey, British Columbia.
For Cam Roxburgh:
http://www.southside.ca/
https://forgeca.wordpress.com/
https://www.thecommonscooperative.com/about
https://churchforvancouver.ca/burnaby-church-plans-45-storey-project-in-partnership-with-bc-builds/
For Alan J Roxburgh:
http://alanroxburgh.com/about
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/alan.roxburgh.127/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecommonsnetwork
Books
Forming Communities of Hope in the Great Unraveling: Leadership in a Changing World (with Roy Searle)
Practices for the Refounding of God’s People: The Missional Challenge of the West (with Martin Robinson)
Joining God in the Great Unraveling
Leadership, God’s Agency and Disruptions
Joining God, Remaking Church, Changing the World: The New Shape of the Church in Our Time
For Jenny Sinclair:
Substack https://t4cg.substack.com/s/from-jenny-sinclair
Website: https://togetherforthecommongood.co.uk/from-jenny-sinclair
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jenny-sinclair-0589783b/
Twitter: https://x.com/T4CG


Get full access to Leaving Egypt at leavingegyptpodcast.substack.com/subscribe

In this episode, Al Roxburgh and Jenny Sinclair speak with Andrew Willard Jones about how to live humanly within the empire of modernity. Andrew traces his journey, from a secular upbringing, to embracing the Catholic tradition and a deep commitment to family and community. An exceptional thinker among a new generation of Catholic theologians, he explores how modernity and its liberalisms have fundamentally reshaped our understanding of the world and what it means to be human. But this is no retreat into religious or academic abstraction. Andrew lives and works daily in a growing community embodying a shared Christian life—an “other kingdom” that echoes Augustine in our age of unravelling. This conversation reveals a cosmic dimension to everyday life: a way of living shaped by the love of God has the potential to transform all of society. It also raises urgent questions for churches, parishes, and Christian communities in this post-liberal moment. If what’s at stake is humanity itself, then our response must be rooted in love and friendship, not power or control.
Andrew Willard Jones is a political theologian whose work is primarily concerned with historical political theology and with the reconciliation of the post-modern with the pre-modern. He is currently Professor of History and Political Theory and Academic Dean at The College of St. Joseph the Worker in Ohio, a new college teaching students the Catholic intellectual tradition while training them in skilled and dignified labour. A founding editor of the journal New Polity, his writing is recognised as having broken new ground in Catholic political thought, and he lectures widely, in both academic and ecclesial contexts. The author of many books, Andrew holds a PhD in Medieval History from Saint Louis University with a focus on the Church of the High Middle Ages. He and his wife Sara are busy raising their eleven children in Steubenville, Ohio.
Links
For Andrew Willard Jones:
https://www.collegeofstjoseph.com/academic-faculty
https://newpolity.com/podcasts-hub/church-against-state
https://newpolity.com/podcasts-hub/meet-andrew-willard-jones
https://newpolity.com/blog?author=5bbdf5b7e4966bea2acb7dee
Books:
The Church Against the State: On Subsidiarity and Sovereignty (New Polity, 2025)
The Two Cities: A History of Christian Politics (Emmaus Road Publishing, 2021)
Before Church and State: A Study of Social Order in the Sacramental Kingdom of St. Louis IX, (Emmaus Academic, 2017)
Evidence of Things Unseen: An Introduction to Fundamental Theology (Emmaus Road, 2019)
The Word Became Flesh: An Introduction to Christology (Emmaus Road, 2019)
This Is My Body: An Introduction to Ecclesiology (Emmaus Road, 2019)
Catholic Topical Index (Verbum, 2013)
For Alan J Roxburgh:
http://alanroxburgh.com/about
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/alan.roxburgh.127/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thecommonsnetwork
Books
Forming Communities of Hope in the Great Unravelling: Leadership in a Changing World (with Roy Searle)
Joining God in the Great Unravelling
Leadership, God’s Agency and Disruptions
Joining God, Remaking Church, Changing the World: The New Shape of the Church in Our Time
For Jenny Sinclair:
Substack: https://t4cg.substack.com/s/from-jenny-sinclair
Website: https://togetherforthecommongood.co.uk/from-jenny-sinclair
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jenny-sinclair-0589783b/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/T4CG
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TogetherForTheCommonGoodUK
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/t4cg_insta/


Get full access to Leaving Egypt at leavingegyptpodcast.substack.com/subscribe