Sounds of SAND

Restoration ecologist and author Dr. Maceo Carrillo Martinet joins us to talk about his new book Healing the Land Teaches Us Who We Are: How Indigenous Cultural Resistance Can Restore the Earth, Recover Community, and Create Sustainable Futures. Grounded in over two decades of community-based restoration work across New Mexico, Maceo makes the case that the climate solutions we're searching for already exist and are already being practiced by communities around the world. The book is structured around the four elements — water, earth, fire, and air — treating each not as a category but as a relative with something to say. We move through the memory of ancient Pueblo dry-land farming still visible on La Bajada Mesa, the racism embedded in the history of American fire suppression, and the idea that culture and science were never actually separate to begin with. A conversation about returning to first principles, in a time when the polycrisis makes that return feel urgent.

Guest

Dr. Maceo Carrillo Martinet is an award-winning restoration ecologist who has spent over 20 years co-creating community-based restoration and education projects across New Mexico and beyond. Since 2008, he has worked with the Partners for Fish and Wildlife Program, assisting private landowners, tribes, cities, and counties. He holds a PhD in biology from the University of New Mexico with a focus on ecology, freshwater sciences, and environmental education. He teaches a hands-on course at UNM on watershed and community restoration.

Topics

00:00 — Introduction

00:02 — The Rio Grande community tree planting during COVID

00:06 — Wounds as portals: what the pandemic revealed

00:09 — La Bajada Mesa & ancient Pueblo dry-land farming

00:14 — Redefining Indigenous science as communal science

00:20 — The four-element framework of the book

00:23 — Elements as relatives, not categories

00:26 — Wildfires, racism & the history of fire suppression

00:33 — The Oakland Museum's "Good Fire" exhibit

00:37 — Fire as community energy, fire inside us

00:42 — The metacrisis & the land as teacher

00:47 — Closing: no silver bullets, only relationship

Resources & Links

Dr. Maceo Carrillo Martinet

Website: maceocm.com

Healing the Land Teaches Us Who We Are: How Indigenous Cultural Resistance Can Restore the Earth, Recover Community, and Create Sustainable Futures — North Atlantic Books, June 2026

Publisher page & book description at Penguin Random House

Read an excerpt

Referenced in the conversation

Jessica Hernandez — Fresh Banana Leaves

Dr. Lyla June Johnston — Architects of Abundance dissertation

Stephen Pyne — fire historian, ASU

Arundhati Roy — "The pandemic is a portal"

Bioneers Conference

Contact SAND

podcast@scienceandnonduality.com

Support the mission of SAND and the production of this podcast by becoming a SAND Member

Global Reverberations of Palestinian Historical Trauma: A SAND Community Gathering with Dr. Samah Jabr, Dr. Gabor Maté & Dr. Jennifer Mullan, facilitated by Dr. Jess Ghannam

Join us for a conversation marking the book launch of Radiance and Pain in Resilience, a powerful collection of essays by Palestinian psychiatrist, psychotherapist, and internationally respected mental health advocate Dr. Samah Jabr.

We are gathering in the midst of genocide. The massive, deliberate traumatization of an entire people, cheered, funded, and shielded from accountability by Western governments, is unfolding in real time. As Israel’s assault on Gaza continues to annihilate bodies, families, and entire lineages, this conversation refuses to look away. It asks what it is to tend to the psyche under conditions of systematic destruction.

Drawing on decades of clinical practice, political analysis, and lived experience under occupation, Dr. Jabr examines the psychological consequences of colonization, displacement, and historical trauma on the Palestinian people. Through personal reflections, case studies, and cultural critique, she challenges dominant Western paradigms of mental health and offers a decolonial, psycho-spiritual framework rooted in dignity, collective care, resistance, and truth.

Proceeds from this conversation go directly to Project Hope Palestine, supporting 500 orphaned children living at Al-Baraka orphan camp in Gaza.

Guests

Dr. Samah Jabr is a psychiatrist practicing in Palestine, serving communities in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. She was formerly Head of the Mental Health Unit within the Palestinian Ministry of Health and is an Associate Clinical Professor of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at George Washington University. She is the author of several books including Behind the Frontlines, Sumud, Sumud in Times of Genocide, and most recently Radiance in Pain and Resilience: The Global Reverberations of Palestinian Historical Trauma.

Dr. Gabor Maté is a physician, trauma expert, and bestselling author of The Myth of Normal, In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts, and When the Body Says No.

Dr. Jennifer Mullan is a clinical psychologist and the author of the national bestseller Decolonizing Therapy: Oppression, Historical Trauma, and Politicizing Your Practice. She is the founder of Decolonizing Therapy®.

Dr. Jess Ghannam (facilitator) is Clinical Professor of Psychiatry and Global Health Sciences at UCSF.

Timestamps

00:00 — Welcome & introductions

00:04 — Dr. Jabr's path into psychiatry and writing

00:06 — Dr. Maté's journey from Zionism to Palestine solidarity

00:10 — Dr. Mullan's path & the political nature of the body

00:17 — Why PTSD doesn't capture the Palestinian experience

00:22 — The DSM, pain, and what diagnosis fails to explain

00:30 — Colonial trauma: cumulative, collective, and intentional

00:33 — Collective healing circles over individual diagnosis

00:39 — Rethinking the role of the mental health worker

00:43 — The colonial roots of Western therapy models

00:50 — Fratricide, domestic violence & the fabricated "lesser nation"

00:55 — Closing reflections: existence as resistance

Resources & Links

Dr. Samah Jabr

Radiance in Pain and Resilience: The Global Reverberations of Palestinian Historical Trauma — Dr. Jabr's book

Decolonial Mental Health Practices: Clinical and Ethical Insights From Palestine — Part 2, four-part course starting Hosted By SAND (Starting July 5, 2026)

Dr. Gabor Maté

The Myth of Normal: Trauma, Illness, and Healing in a Toxic Culture

Dr. Jennifer Mullan

Decolonizing Therapy: Oppression, Historical Trauma, and Politicizing Your Practice

Center for Decolonizing Therapy®

Support

Project Hope Palestine — supporting 500 orphaned children at Al-Baraka orphan camp in Gaza; proceeds from this event go directly here

Thinkers referenced in the conversation

Frantz Fanon — referenced by Dr. Jabr in her theorization of colonial trauma

Dr. Kenneth Hardy — Black psychologist referenced for the concept of the "assaulted sense of self"

Dr. Na'im Akbar — author of The Psychological Chains of Slavery, referenced by Dr. Mullan

Roberto and Bonnie Duran, Dr. Maria Yellow Horse Brave Heart — referenced for the concept of the "soul wound" and historical trauma

Contact SAND

podcast@scienceandnonduality.com

Support the mission of SAND and the production of this podcast by becoming a SAND Member

Daniel Foor returns to Sounds of SAND for a wide-ranging conversation that moves from his own winding spiritual path to the urgent question of why so many spiritual teachers stay silent in the face of injustice. A doctor of psychology, initiated priest in the Yoruba Ifá tradition, and practicing Muslim, Daniel makes the case that animism is the antidote to human supremacy, that Islam is fundamentally a relational and earth-honoring tradition, and that genuine spirituality cannot retreat from the political realities of our time. Along the way, he speaks candidly about ancestral healing, decolonization, the genocide in Gaza, and what it means to become "regular-sized" in a culture built on separation.

Topics

00:00 — Welcome back & reconnecting with SAND

00:01 — Daniel's path: shamanism, psychology & many lineages

00:04 — Animism as the antidote to human supremacy

00:09 — Environmental problems are human behavior problems

00:10 — Is Islam animist? Sufism & the heart of the tradition

00:15 — Relationship is not worship: rethinking animism

00:20 — Giving the more-than-human a seat at the table

00:23 — "Blown-out" lineages & relearning relationship

00:26 — Spiritual responsibility & the silence around Gaza

00:31 — When silence becomes a moral failure

00:34 — The differential valuation of human life

00:38 — What Daniel is building: ancestral & earth ritual trainings

00:42 — Why pre-colonial ancestral connection matters

00:43 — Becoming "regular-sized": the antidote to extreme individualism

00:49 — Right relationship, humility & closing reflections

Resources & Links

Ancestral Medicine — Daniel Foor's website, courses, trainings & practitioner directory


Ancestral & Lineage Healing Course


Practitioner Directory — ancestral healing in 30+ languages, offered remotely with financial accessibility


Ancestral Medicine: Rituals for Personal and Family Healing (book)

SAND Films



Where Olive Trees Weep

The Eternal Song (series of 12 films)



Referenced

Graham Harvey — scholar of the "new animism," referenced in the discussion of relational worldviews

Surah Al-Tin (The Fig) and the animist verses of the Quran — referenced throughout the conversation on Islam as a relational tradition

Contact SAND

podcast@scienceandnonduality.com

Support the mission of SAND and the production of this podcast by becoming a SAND Member

There is a “false wall” often placed between contemplative life and political action—a story implying that inner peace and outer justice are separate vocations. This imaginary divide exhausts us. In a world facing converging crises, how do those dedicated to healing move beyond the limits of individualized work to support systemic transformation?

Join somatics experts and social change practitioners Nkem Ndefo and Staci K. Haines for a conversation introducing The Outer Work Project; an initiative dedicated to bridging trauma healing spaces with sustained social and climate justice movements. This episode explores how to move from personal healing as solely an inward practice into a rooted force for collective change.

Guests

Nkem Ndefo is an alchemist, disabled Black midwife, facilitator, coach, and strategist. She is the founder of Lumos Transforms and creator of The Resilience Toolkit, a model for embodied healing and liberatory change rooted in neuroscience and social justice. Her work spans the US, UK, and Palestine.

Staci K. Haines has been working at the intersections of personal and social transformation for over 30 years through politicized somatics, trauma healing, embodied leadership, and transformative justice. She is the co-founder of Generative Somatics and co-leads The Outer Work Project. She is the author of The Politics of Trauma: Somatics, Healing and Social Justice.

Rae Abileah (facilitator) is a social change strategist, Jewish faith leader, and member of the SAND team. Her work spans Beautiful Trouble, The Nature Conservancy Agility Lab, and ALAS, weaving cultural connection, the arts, and frontline community leadership as pathways to healing and climate justice.

Timestamps

00:00 — Welcome & opening from SAND

00:03 — Rae opens: breathing, interdependence, and tending the whole amidst brokenness

00:07 — Nkem and Staci introduce themselves: lineage, the politic of suffering, and why this work

00:15 — The false wall: separating spiritual and political

00:16 — Case study: National Domestic Workers Alliance and embodied leadership

00:19 — Case study: LA County health system, anti-racism work, and the word "love"

00:25 — Burnout, overwhelm, and sustaining movement work from the inside out

00:35 — Consent, boundaries, and building a somatic culture in organizations

00:43 — Tearing down vs. building: holding contradictions without collapsing

00:48 — Visioning our yes: what a racially just feminist social democracy could feel like

00:50 — Legacy, small acts, and what we're building together

01:00 — Closing reflections: love as action and trusting our courage

Resources & Links

Nkem Ndefo

Lumos Transforms — website

The Resilience Toolkit

Lumos Transforms Community (global network)

Practicing Liberation — contributing author (North Atlantic Books, 2024)

Staci K. Haines

Website: StaciHaines.com

The Politics of Trauma: Somatics, Healing and Social Justice — North Atlantic Books, 2019

Generative Somatics

The Outer Work Project

Strozzi Institute

Rae Abileah

CreateWell

Beautiful Trouble

ALAS — Ayudando Latinos a Soñar

Organizations & concepts referenced

National Domestic Workers Alliance — Staci's 7-year embodied leadership program with domestic worker organizers

Ai-jen Poo — founder of NDWA — referenced throughout the NDWA story

Movement Generation — Just Transitions zine — "From Banks and Tanks to Cooperation and Caring," referenced by Staci as an essential framework for a regenerative economy

Terry Tempest Williams — The Glorians (audiobook) — Rae references the passage "We cannot breathe" during the opening

generationFIVE — founded by Staci, committed to ending child sexual abuse within five generations using transformative justice approaches

SAND Events, Courses and Films

What Occupation Does to the Soul: A Global Reverberations of Palestinian Historical Trauma — June 26th, with Dr. Samah Jabr, Dr. Gabor Maté, and Dr. Jennifer Mullan

Decolonial Mental Health Practices — Four-part webinar series with Dr. Samah Jabr



The Eternal Song film series



Contact SAND

podcast@scienceandnonduality.com

Support the mission of SAND and the production of this podcast by becoming a SAND Member

Recorded live at a SAND Community Gathering (April 2026)

Hard times are here, we hunger for voices that can see beyond the fear, beyond the noise, beyond the technologies consuming our attention. We need poets and visionaries. People who remember freedom.

Dr. Jaiya John (Mshkiki Odeh Inini, Medicine Heart Man), medicine poet, freedom worker, is one of those voices. He has spent his life gathering words that heal. In this conversation, we enter the beauty, the grief, and the medicine together. We sit with the devastation tearing our world, the sorrows cracking us open, the ancestors still holding us—and the radical insistence that collective freedom is not something we chase. It is something already alive in and between us, waiting to be birthed.

Dr. Jaiya John (Mshkiki Odeh Inini, Medicine Heart Man) was orphan-born on ancient Indigenous Anasazi and Pueblo lands in the high desert of New Mexico. He is an ancestral Baba, freedom worker, medicine poet, and the founder of Soul Water Rising—a global mission to eradicate oppression through re-humanization, book donations, and grants to displaced youth. He is the author of numerous books including Freedom: Medicine Words for your Brave Revolution and Fragrance After Rain, and the creator of the podcast I Will Read for You. A former professor of social psychology at Howard University, he holds a doctorate from UC Santa Cruz and has spoken to over a million people worldwide. His Indigenous soul dreams of frybread, sweetgrass, bamboo in the breeze, and turtle lakes whose poetry is peace.



Watch the full video version of this conversation.



Topics



00:00 Welcome and Land Acknowledgment

02:31 Guest Bio and Introduction

03:51 Opening Blessing and Heart Question

05:10 Reclaiming Anger as Medicine

08:08 Libation Prayer for the World

15:57 Anger Rage and Lifted Veils

20:19 Rethinking War and Remembering Water

25:18 Gather Your People Reading

33:04 Grief Poetry and Inner Wars

36:13 War Wants Us Small

40:30 Soul Conditions That Grow War

42:14 Oxygen of War

44:12 Harvesting Clear Vision

47:05 Ferocious Grief Revival

49:38 How Grief Behaves

51:59 Poetry Against Silence

55:08 From Muteness to Voice

58:33 Artistry as Resurrection

01:03:42 Womanhood as Creativity

01:07:23 History as Sacred Hoop

01:12:45 Composting Harm into Healing

01:16:33 Intentional Living Practice

01:19:22 All These Rivers Choose Love

01:23:01 Blessings and Farewell



Dr. Jaiya John — Guest

Website: jaiyajohn.com

Soul Water Rising — global mission

Podcast: I Will Read for You: The Voice and Writings of Jaiya John

Freedom Medicine: Words for Your Brave Revolution — book

Wildflowers Praying at Midnight — book

We Birth Freedom at Dawn — book

All These Rivers and You Chose Love — book

Fragrance After Rain — book

Dr. Jaiya John's YouTube channel — where his poem for the Martyred Poets of Gaza and Palestine is available

Substack: jaiyajohn.substack.com

Dr. Jennifer Mullan — Referenced

Website: decolonizingtherapy.com — Dr. Mullan's "rage doctor" ministry and upcoming work

Decolonizing Therapy: Oppression, Historical Trauma, and Politicizing Your Practice — book

Therapy is Not Neutral: Dr. Jennifer Mullan & Iya Affo (SAND Podcast episode)

The Gaza Monologues — Referenced

The Gaza Monologues — ASHTAR Theatre — the global project of 33 young people from Gaza, which Dr. Jaiya John contributed a poem to

Support ASHTAR Theatre / Gaza Monologues writers — GlobalGiving

Nikki Giovanni — Referenced

Nikki Giovanni — Poetry Foundation — the poet whose performance broke Dr. Jaiya John open as a young man and birthed him as a poet

nikki-giovanni.com

Ancestors Referenced

El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (Malcolm X) — quoted: "Out of all our studies, history is most qualified to reward our research"

Geronimo — Dr. Jaiya John's ancestral grandfather spirit, whose question "What is in your heart?" opens the gathering

John Lewis — referenced for "good trouble" and getting in the way of harm

Hopi Nation / Turtle Island

The concept of Sipapu (the Hopi place of emergence/womb place) is discussed at length as a framework for understanding history as circular, not linear



Connect with more talks and films from the SAND film Series The Eternal Song



Support the mission of SAND and the production of this podcast by becoming a SAND Member