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The Fourth Curtain

Alexander Seropian & Aaron Marroquin
The Fourth Curtain
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  • The Origin Stories of Elder Scrolls' Paul Sage
    We get an inside look this week from Paul Sage, founder and CEO of Ruckus Games. Inspired by Ultima 3, he worked his way up to lead designer of Ultima Online, to Borderlands 3 and more. Now working on a new project at Ruckus, we talk LEDs to 2600, Multima and when players outsmart you - this week! This week's episode contains mentions of suicide. Viewer discretion is advised.Episode Highlights[00:00:00] Intro: Meet Paul Sage[00:09:15] Founding Ruckus Games: Origins of the Studio and the NamePaul shares how Ruckus Games was formed, why the name was chosen, and the vision that inspired its creation.[00:15:27] Surviving in Games: Do You Really Need a Hit?A candid discussion about the brutal economics of game development, why hits matter, and whether smaller successes can still keep a studio alive.[00:17:30] From Borderlands to Ruckus: Building a Team During a PandemicPaul reflects on bringing together the original Borderlands crew, the challenges of forming a studio during COVID, and why this team made sense.[00:21:04] Growing Up in Texas: Consoles, Coding, and Falling in Love with GamesFrom playing on a Merlin to coding in BASIC, Paul’s early years in Texas shaped his passion for computers, games, and Ultima Online.[00:34:50] From QA Tester to Designer: Breaking Into the IndustryThanks to a chance connection, Paul lands his first QA role — and through long nights and relentless work, makes his way onto the Ultima Online design team[00:50:26] Tabula Rasa: Hard Lessons and E3’s All-Time LowPaul opens up about leading Tabula Rasa, the struggles of working with ideas he didn’t believe in, and the infamous E3 moment that nearly broke the team.[00:59:37] Bethesda and Beyond: Learning Structure and Gaining ConfidenceAfter leaving Tabula Rasa, Paul joins Bethesda and ZeniMax Online, where strong processes and leadership lessons gave him the confidence to launch his own studio, Ruckus Games.[01:02:15] Borderlands 3 and Beyond: Finding Joy and Fixing a Broken IndustryPaul looks back on the success of Borderlands 3, why the industry needs change, and how Ruckus Games is built on lessons learned to create a healthier path forward.[1:09:04] Outro: Closing RemarksSupport the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505
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  • How to Make an Atari Sandwich, with David Gardner
    David Gardner joins us this week with tales of the early days of videogames. A teenage tech prodigy, he was employee #11 at EA, ran Atari and is now a games VC. We talk Hawkins distortion fields, Atari sandwiches and when EA was hip - this week!Episode Highlights[00:00:00] Intro: Meet David GardnerAn introduction to David Gardner’s journey in games, from his early days to becoming a leader at Electronic Arts and later a venture capital investor.[00:07:30] Breaking into Games: From Atari to EA to AtariDavid Gardner shares an overview of his journey, from his early Atari days to becoming a key figure at Electronic Arts, to VC-ing and beyond. He also shares tips and tricks about being a "super connector" and the best way to create a network.[00:13:55] Obsessed with Computers: The Poster Child with an Apple IIDavid shares how he got started with games, from knocking on doors at 12 years old, to being on first-name basis with the Atari team & being snuck into conventions.[00:22:19] The Start of EA: Hired at 17 and Flown to CaliforniaDavid talks about getting hired by EA, setting up international trade for the company, and going on his first trip to London that changed his life. They also discuss the 10,000 hours rule and the role of education in growing up. [00:33:04] EA's Beginnings: Forging a Path David tells stories from EA’s early expansion, including culture, leadership, and publishing strategies that shaped the modern industry.[00:42:05] Building EA's UK Branch: Translating Business Practices InternationallyBehind-the-scenes tales of creating EA's international branches, setting trends in the packaging and selling of games, and EA's growth over 20 years. [00:49:07] The Kool-Aid from the Past: Starting Anew and Going Back HomeDavid touches on the culture shock of going back to the US, navigating company politics, and why he ultimately left for the UK again. They discuss leaving EA and his old life behind, finding your place, and feeling valued.[00:56:54] Working at Atari: The Wake Up CallDavid unpacks the challenges at Atari and the economics of games across decades, from boxed products to digital distribution & free-to-play. He also discusses his start in investing.[1:05:03] From Executive to Investor: Founding London Venture PartnersThe journey from publishing to investing and venture capital, and why David co-founded LVP to back innovative game studios and companies (Unity, Playfish, Supercell, and more).[1:12:18] Outro: Closing RemarksSupport the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505
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  • Indie Megabooth's Digital Nomad Kelly Wallick
    This week we talk with the founder of the Indie Megabooth and games VC Kelly Wallick. Through her indie beginnings to her investing portfolio, community has always been the core. We discuss the Indie Game Festival, spotting hits and making a great pitch deck - this week!Episode Highlights[00:00:00] Founding the Indie MEGABOOTH: Building a Platform for Indie GamesKelly shares how she launched the Indie MEGABOOTH, creating a showcase that gave indie developers global visibility at major conventions.[00:06:00] From Chemistry to Gaming: Kelly’s Unlikely Career PathDiscover how Kelly went from studying chemistry and working in science to becoming a leader in the indie game community.[00:13:00] The Rise of Indie Games: How Developers Changed the IndustryKelly reflects on the cultural and creative shift that indie games sparked, reshaping how players and publishers view the medium.[00:20:00] Behind the Scenes of PAX: Scaling Indie Showcases WorldwideLearn how the Indie MEGABOOTH expanded into a global phenomenon, partnering with PAX and other major events to spotlight independent creators.[00:32:00] Challenges of Running Indie MEGABOOTH: Funding, Burnout, and SurvivalKelly opens up about the financial and emotional hurdles of sustaining a community-driven organization in the fast-changing games industry.[00:41:00] Navigating COVID-19: Shutting Down Events and Supporting DevelopersHear how the pandemic forced Indie MEGABOOTH to shut down operations—and how Kelly and her team worked to support struggling developers.[00:50:00] Transitioning to Venture Capital: Kelly’s New Role in Games FundingKelly explains how she moved into VC work, investing in early-stage game companies and helping founders grow their visions.[01:00:00] Advice for Indie Creators: Community, Resilience, and Staying AuthenticKelly offers advice for new developers—emphasizing collaboration, sustainable practices, and why staying true to your creative voice matters most.Support the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505
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  • Fallout's Feargus Urquhart Stares into the Abyss
    Our guest is Feargus Urquhart, founder and CEO of Obsidian, the premier maker of videogame RPGs. Having mastered 27 second pizzas he moved to testing and production of huge titles like KOTOR, Baldur's Gate and Fallout. We discuss snatching victory from the jaws of defeat with Pillars of Eternity, and when a feature is real - this week!Episode Highlights[00:00:00] Founding Obsidian Entertainment: From Black Isle to New BeginningsFeargus shares how he and his former Black Isle colleagues launched Obsidian in 2003, determined to create deep RPG experiences despite industry headwinds.[00:05:00] The Fallout Series Legacy: Storytelling That Stands the Test of TimeFeargus reflects on his work with Fallout and how its blend of player choice, dark humor, and moral complexity still influences RPG design today.[00:12:00] Navigating Publisher Deals: Lessons from the Early Obsidian YearsHear how Obsidian survived rocky publisher relationships, including near cancellations, and what the team learned about creative control and financial survival.[00:21:00] Making Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II Under Deadline PressureFeargus explains how the team delivered KOTOR II in just 14 months—and the trade-offs required to ship under tight LucasArts deadlines.[00:31:00] From Pillars of Eternity to Deadfire: Reviving the Isometric RPGDiscover how Kickstarter and a passionate fan base brought Pillars of Eternity to life, sparking a renaissance for classic-style RPGs.[00:43:00] The Microsoft Acquisition: Joining Xbox Game StudiosFeargus discusses Obsidian’s 2018 acquisition by Microsoft, what it meant for studio stability, and how it opened doors for ambitious projects.[00:50:00] Creating The Outer Worlds: Satire, Choice, and Sci-Fi ExplorationLearn how Obsidian blended sharp humor, branching narratives, and vibrant worlds to craft The Outer Worlds, a modern hit with old-school sensibilities.[01:03:00] Advice for Aspiring Game Developers: Build Skills and Networks EarlyFeargus offers guidance for breaking into the industry—emphasizing collaboration, flexibility, and learning from every project.Support the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505
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  • Making Myst a World with Rand and Robyn Miller
    Our guests are Rand and Robyn Miller, founders of Cyan (World) and creators of the smash game Myst. From humble beginnings in Hypercard kids' games, they made the 3D puzzle experience Myst which changed the world of adventure games. We discuss GRR Martin stories, line art to 3D and more - this week!Episode Highlights[00:00:00] How Myst Was Made: The Birth of a Gaming Landmark Robyn and Rand Miller reflect on the early days of Cyan and how they created Myst—a genre-defining game that shaped the future of narrative and puzzle design.[00:07:00] Making Games on a Mac Plus: Myst’s Surprising Development Setup The brothers reveal how Myst was developed using off-the-shelf consumer hardware—proving that groundbreaking games can come from minimal setups.[00:14:00] The Myst Trailer That Changed Everything: A Publisher’s Big Bet Learn how a 90-second trailer helped convince publishers to take a chance on Myst, setting off a chain of events that would make it the best-selling PC game of the decade.[00:19:00] Myst’s Visual Style: Why Pre-Rendered Worlds Still Hold Up Robyn explains the creative reasons behind Myst's iconic static imagery—and why it still resonates with players even in an era of real-time 3D.[00:26:00] How Riven Raised the Bar: Bigger Worlds, Bolder Vision Rand discusses the development of Riven, the technical leaps it required, and how it built on Myst to deliver a more expansive, immersive player experience.[00:40:00] Why the Myst Brothers Left the Game Industry—and What Brought Them Back After the height of Myst and Riven, Robyn and Rand took separate paths. They share what pulled them away from games—and what inspired their return decades later.[00:47:00] Remaking Riven in Real-Time 3D: Challenges and Ambitions Cyan is rebuilding Riven from the ground up. Hear how today’s tools and player expectations are reshaping one of gaming’s most beloved worlds.[01:04:00] Advice for Indie Game Creators: Start Small, Stay Honest Robyn and Rand offer hard-won advice to new game developers: why simplicity, focus, and authenticity are the keys to building memorable experiences.Support the showThank you for listening to our podcast all about videogames and the amazing people who bring them to life!Hosted by Alexander Seropian and Aaron MarroquinFind us at www.thefourthcurtain.com Join our Patreon for early, ad-free episodes plus bonus content at https://patreon.com/FourthCurtain Come join the conversation at https://discord.gg/KWeGE4xHfeVideos available at https://www.youtube.com/@thefourthcurtainFollow us on Twitter: @fourthcurtainEdited and mastered at https://noise-floor.com Audio Editor: Bryen HensleyVideo Editor: Sarkis GrigorianProducer: Kimya TaheriArt: Paul RusselCommunity Manager: Doug ZartmanFeaturing Liberation by 505
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About The Fourth Curtain

A GUIDED TOUR OF VIDEOGAME MAKERY! Hosts Alex Seropian (founder Bungie, Wideload, Industrial Toys) and Aaron Marroquin (Art Director, Game Designer, part time magician) take you on a tour of the minds that create our favorite video games. We may also wander around in our own heads too. We aim to inspire, educate and entertain you about the games you love, the people that make them and hey, if you're not a gamer we know you know one. This will help you connect with them too.
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