Behind the Genes

• Dr Ana Lisa Tavares, Anne Lennox, Dr Meriel McEntagart, Dr Carlo Rinaldi: Can patient collaboration shape the future of therapies for rare conditions?

  Rare condition research is evolving, and patient communities are driving the breakthrough. In this special Rare Disease Day episode, we explore the challenges and opportunities shaping the future of rare condition therapies. From groundbreaking gene therapy trials to the power of patient-driven research, our guests discuss how collaboration between families, clinicians, researchers, and regulators is paving the way for faster diagnoses, equitable access to treatments, and innovative approaches like nucleic acid therapies and CRISPR gene editing. With insights from Myotubular Trust, we follow the journey of family-led patient communities and their impact on advancing gene therapy for myotubular myopathy - showcasing how lived experience is shaping the future of medicine. However, while patient-driven initiatives have led to incredible progress, not every family has the time, resources, or networks to lead these research efforts. Our guests discuss initiatives like the UK Platform for Nucleic Acid Therapies (UPNAT), which aims to streamline the development of innovative treatments and ensure equitable access for everyone impacted by rare conditions. Our host Dr Ana Lisa Tavares, Clinical lead for rare disease at Genomics England, is joined by Meriel McEntagart, Clinical lead for rare disease technologies at Genomics England, Anne Lennox, Founder and CEO of Myotubular Trust and Dr Carlo Rinaldi, Professor of Molecular and Translational Neuroscience at University of Oxford. "My dream is in 5 to 10 years time, an individual with a rare disease is identified in the clinic, perhaps even before symptoms have manifested. And at that exact time, the day of the diagnosis becomes also a day of hope, in a way, where immediately the researcher that sent the genetics lab flags that specific variant or specific mutations. We know exactly which is the best genetic therapy to go after." You can download the transcript, or read it below. Ana Lisa: Welcome to Behind the Genes.    [Music plays]  Anne: What we’ve understood is that the knowledge and experience of families and patients is even more vital than we’ve all been going on about for a long time. Because the issue of there being a liver complication in myotubular myopathy has been hiding in plain sight all this time, because if you asked any family, they would tell you, “Yes, my son has had the odd liver result.”  There were some very serious liver complications but everybody thought that was a minor issue, but if we are able to engage the people who live with the disease and the people who observe the disease at a much more fundamental level we may be able to see more about what these rare genes are doing.  [Music plays]  Ana Lisa: My name is Ana Lisa Tavares, I’m Clinical Lead for Rare Disease research at Genomics England and your host for this episode of Behind the Genes. Today I’m joined by Anne Lennox, Founder and CEO of the Myotubular Trust, Dr Meriel McEntagart, an NHS consultant and Clinical Lead for Rare Disease Technologies at Genomics England, and Dr Carlo Rinaldi, Professor of Molecular and Translational Neuroscience at the University of Oxford.    Today we’ll be hearing about the importance of involving the patient community, particularly as new rare therapies are developed, and discussing the forward-facing work that’s happening that could have potential to unlock novel treatments for many rare conditions.  If you enjoy today’s episode we’d love your support. Please like, share and rate us on wherever you listen to your podcasts. Thank you so much for joining me today.  Please could you introduce yourselves.   Anne: I’m Anne Lennox, I’m one of the founders of the Myotubular Trust, a charity that raises research funds for and supports families affected by the rare genetic neuromuscular disorder myotubular myopathy.  Meriel: I’m Meriel McEntagart, I’m a consultant in clinical genetics in the NHS and I have a special interest in neurogenic and neuromuscular conditions.  Carlo: Hi, I’m Carlo Rinaldi, I’m Professor of Molecular and Translational Neuroscience at the University of Oxford. I’m a clinician scientist juggling my time between the clinic and the lab where we try to understand mechanisms of diseases to develop treatments for these conditions.  And I’m also here as a representative of the UK Platform for Nucleic Acid Therapies, UPNAT. Thanks for your invitation, I’m very pleased to be here.  Ana Lisa: Thank you. Meriel, I’d love you to tell us a bit about your work and how you met Anne, how did this story start?  Meriel: Thank you. Well prior to being a consultant in clinical genetics, I spent 2 years as a clinical research fellow in neuromuscular conditions, and as part of that training I worked on a project where the gene for myotubular myopathy had just been identified, and so there was a big international effort to try and come up with sort of a registry of all the genetic variants that had been found as well as all the clinical symptoms that the affected patients had, and then do kind of a correlation of the particular variant mutation with symptoms.   I worked when I was training to be a clinical geneticist because of my interest in neuromuscular conditions so when I eventually became a consultant at St George’s Hospital I was actually interviewed by the Professor of Paediatrics and he knew Anne and her son, when Anne was looking for more information about the condition he suggested that perhaps I might be a good person for Anne to talk to.  Ana Lisa: Thank you. Interesting connections. Anne, can you tell us your story and how this led you to found the Myotubular Trust?  Anne: Yes, thanks Ana-Lisa.  Well, as many families will tell you when they’re newly diagnosed with a rare disease, you go from knowing nothing about a condition to being one of the few deep experts in that condition because there are so few deep experts. So this happened to us in 2003 when our son, Tom, was born, and when he was born he was floppy and his Apgar scores, the scores they do on new-born babies, were pretty poor, and before long we knew that it was more than just momentary issues at birth.  And, cutting a very long story short, 5 weeks later he was diagnosed with this very rare neuromuscular genetic disorder that we didn’t know we had in the family.  We were told that this was a very serious diagnosis.    At that time – more than 20 years ago – over 80% of those boys didn’t make it to their first birthday and the stark statistic we had in our head a lot was that only 1% made it past the age of 10. And that has changed due to better ventilator and breathing equipment, etc, but at the time we expected that he might not make it to his first birthday.    We were very lucky, we had Tom longer than one year, we had him for nearly 4 years, 4 very lovely years where it was tough, but he was a really lovely member of our family.  Despite being really weak he managed to be incredibly cheeky and bossy, and he was a great little brother for his big sister. We were also very lucky that he was being looked after by Professor Francesco Muntoni, who is Head of the Paediatric Neuromuscular Service at Great Ormond Street. And, like Carlo, he is a clinical researcher and actually that I found to be amazing as a family member because you knew what was happening out there and Professor Muntoni, other than living with the reality day to day you want to know where things are going.    We began to realise that back then 20 years ago the more common rare neuromuscular diseases were finally beginning to get some fundamental research funds, like Duchenne, spinal muscular atrophy, and Professor Muntoni was very good at explaining to lay non-scientific parents like us that one day the technologies that would lead to a cure, that would re-engage proteins for other conditions and would translate down eventually into the possibility of replacing myotubularin, which is the protein not being produced or not being produced enough in myotubular myopathy. And then we began to understand actually what the barriers to that would be, that translating developments in more common, or let’s say more prevalent conditions, would be hard to do without some translation research being done; you could not just not lag years behind, you could lag decades behind if you haven’t done some other work.    So, I met Wendy Hughes, another mother, of a boy called Zak who was a few years older than Tom, and these were the days before social media, and it was amazing to be in contact with another family going through something similar and we had great conversations. But then they were also looked after by Professor Muntoni and we particularly began to develop the idea as 2 families that we might be able to raise some research funds towards this concept of keeping pace with the scientific developments.  And then we discovered there was no charity we could channel those funds through. Even the umbrella body for neuromuscular diseases who were covering 30 to 40 conditions, frankly, they just couldn’t trickle their funding down into investing in every neuromuscular disease, and slowly but surely it dawned on us that if we did want to make that difference we were going to have to set up our own charity.   So that’s what we eventually did and back in 2006, we founded what was actually the first charity in Europe dedicated to myotubular myopathy – luckily, more have come along since – and we were dedicated to raising research funding. In fact, it wasn’t our goal to set up another charity but around that time, about a year in, we happened to go to a meeting where the Head of the MRC, the Medical Research Council, was giving a talk and he said that in the last few years the MRC had begun to really realise that they couldn’t cure everything, that they couldn’t cure the diseases that would be cured in the next millennium from a top down perspective. There had to be a trick, there had to be a bottom up as well, because that was the only way this was going to happen. And I have to say that that was a really reassuring moment in time for us to realise that we weren’t just chasing pipe dreams and trying to do something impossible, that there was a role for us.    Ana Lisa: I think it would be really interesting for people to hear your story and the amazing set-up and fundraising that you’ve done, and at the same time it would be really good for us to reflect on how this isn’t feasible for every patient and every family and how we’re going to need to work cooperatively to move forwards with rare therapies.  Anne: When we explored the idea with Professor Muntoni and Meriel and others about setting up a charity one of the really reassuring things that Professor Muntoni got across to us was that this wasn’t about raising the millions and millions it would take to fund clinical trials but the issue in the rare disease space was funding the proof of principle work, the work where you take a scientist’s hypothesis and take it over the line, and the rarer the disease, the less places there are for a scientist to take those ideas. And the example he gave us was a piece of research like that might cost a hundred to a couple of hundred thousand, if you fund a piece of work like that and if it is successful, if the scientist’s principle gets proven, then behind you it’s much easier for the bigger muscle disease charities to also invest in it. It’s harder for them to spread their money across all the very rare diseases hypothesis out there, but if you’ve helped a scientist get over the line they’ll come in behind you and then they won’t be the ones who fund the tens of millions that it takes to run a clinical trial.    If it’s got potential, then that’s where the commercial world comes in, and that’s where the biotechs come in. So he’d given the example of if you spent £ten0,000 on a piece of research and it actually is proven, in behind you will come the bigger charities that would put in the million that takes it to the next phase, and in behind them will come the bio-checks that’ll provide biotechs that’ll provide the tens of millions.    And then, you know, a lot of what happens relies on serendipity as well, we know that, and you could easily run away with the idea that you made everything happen but you don’t, you stand on the shoulders of others. And our very first grant application in our first grant round, which received extraordinary peer review for how excellent the application was, was a £100,000 project for a 3-year project that had gene therapy at the core of it by a researcher called Dr Ana Buj Bello at Généthon in Paris. This piece of research was so promising that 18 months in she and another researcher were able to raise $780,000 and, as Professor Muntoni predicted, from the French muscle disease charity AFM and the American muscle diseases charity MDA.  And 18 months into that 3 years it was so promising that a biotech company was started up with $30 million funding, literally just on her work.    So that doesn’t always happen but, as Professor Muntoni explained, our job was not that $30 million, our job was that first £100,000, and our job was also to make ourselves known to the people in the neuromuscular field.  If you have lab time, if you have research time and you have a choice where you’re putting it there is a place you can go to for a myotubular myopathy related grant application, so it’s not just that this will come to us out of the blue, people will have done prior work, and our existence makes it worth their while, hopefully, to have done that prior work.  Ana Lisa: That’s an amazing story how you’ve set up this charity and how successful that first application for gene therapy was. I’d love to hear more about that gene therapy and did it get to the clinic and to hear that story from you.  Because I think there are a lot of learnings and it’s really important that the first patients who are treated, the first families that are involved, the researchers who start researching in this area, the first treatments lead the way and we learn for all the other treatments for all the other rare conditions that we hope and that together as a community we can share these learnings.  Anne: Yeah. I sometimes describe it a bit like going out into space. When you see a rocket going off look at how many people are behind and the amount of work that’s been done, the degree of detail that’s managed, and then you go out into space and there are a whole load of unknowns, and you can’t account for all of them.  Who knows what’s out there in this sphere.  But the amount of preparation, it feels similar to me now, looking back.  We were so idealistic at the beginning.  Our grant to Dr Buj Bello was 2008 and actually it is a really fast time in, the first child was dosed in the gene therapy trial in September 2017.  Ana Lisa: So, we’re talking less than 1 years.  Anne: Yeah. And in the meantime obviously as a charity we’re also funding other proof of principle research. One of the founding principles of the charity was to have a really excellent peer review process and scientific advisory board so that we wouldn’t get carried away with excitement about one lab, one research team, that everything would always come back to peer review and would be looked at coldly, objectively. I don’t know how many times I’ve sat in a scientific advisory board meeting with my fingers crossed hoping that a certain application would get through because it looked wonderful to me, and then the peer review comes back and there are things you just don’t know as a patient organisation. So, yes, in those 9 years we were also funding other work.  Ana Lisa: You’ve just given an interesting perspective on sharing the learnings between the scientists, clinicians, the experts in a particular condition, if you like, and the families, and I’d be really interested to hear your views on what’s been learnt about how families and the patient community can also teach the clinical and scientific community.  Anne: So, the first child was dosed in September 2017 and by the World Muscle Society Conference 2 years later in October 2019 the biotech had some fantastic results to show. Children who had been 24-hour ventilated were now ventilator-free, which, unless you know what it’s like to have somebody in front of you who’s ventilator-dependent, the idea that they could become ventilator-free is just extraordinary.    However, one of the things we’ve learnt about gene therapy is that we are going out into space so there are extraordinary things to be found, and extraordinary results are possible, as is evidenced here, but there is so much that we don’t know once we are dealing with gene therapy. So unfortunately, in May, June and August of 2020, 3 little boys died on the clinical trial. So we have a clinical trial where the most extraordinary results are possible, and the worst results are possible, and both of those things are down to the gene…  What we discovered and what is still being uncovered and discovered is that myotubular myopathy is not just a neuromuscular disorder, it is a disorder of the liver too, and these children didn’t die of an immune response, which is what everybody assumes is going to happen in these trials, they died of liver complications.    And one of the things that has come out of that, well, 2 sides to that. Number one is that it is extraordinary that we have found a treatment that makes every single muscle cell in the body pick up the protein that was missing and produce that protein, but also what we’ve understood is that the knowledge and experience of families and patients is even more vital than we’ve all been going on about for a long time. Because the issue of there being a liver complication in myotubular myopathy has been hiding in plain sight all this time, because if you asked any family they would tell you, “Yes, my son has had the odd liver result, yes.”    We could see something that looked like it was not that relevant because it was outside the big picture of the disease, which was about breathing and walking and muscles, but actually there was this thing going on at the same time where the children had liver complications. There were some very serious liver complications but everybody thought that was a minor issue but if we are able to engage the people who live with the disease and the people who observe the disease at a much more fundamental level we may be able to see more about what these rare genes are doing.  Ana Lisa: Yeah, thank you very much for sharing such a moving story and with such powerful lessons for the whole community about how we listen to the expertise that families have about their condition, and also I think the really important point about how we tackle the research funding so that we’re including and sharing learnings from the conditions that are initially studied in greater depth, and we hope that many more conditions will be better understood and more treatments found and that actually the learnings from these first gene therapy trials will really help inform future trials, not just for gene therapies but also for many other novel therapies that are being developed.  [Music plays] If you're enjoying what you've heard today, and you'd like to hear some more great tales from the genomics coalface, why don't you join us on The Road to Genome podcast. Where our host Helen Bethel, chats to the professionals, experts and patients involved in genomics today. In our new series, Helen talks to a fantastic array of guests, including the rapping consultant, clinical geneticist, Professor Julian Barwell, about Fragile X syndrome, cancer genomics and a holistic approach to his practice - a genuine mic-drop of an interview. The Road to Genome is available wherever you get your podcasts. [Music plays] Ana Lisa: Carlo, I would really like to come to you about some of the initiatives that are happening in the UK, and particularly it would be really interesting to hear about the UK Platform for Nucleic Acid Therapies as a sort of shining example of trying to do something at a national scale across potentially many different rare conditions.    Carlo: Thanks, Ana-Lisa. Thanks very much, Anne, for sharing your fantastic story. I mean, I just want to iterate that as clinician scientists we do constantly learn from experiences and constantly learn from you, from the patient community, and this is absolutely valuable to push the boundary. And I really liked your vision of a rocket being launched in space and I would imagine that this is a similar situation here. So, we are facing a major challenge. So, there is over 7,000 rare diseases in the world and with improvements of genetic diagnosis this is only increasing. So, in a way rare diseases is the ultimate frontier of personalised medicine and this poses incredible challenges.   So, you mentioned the bottom-up approach and the top-down approach and in a way, both are absolutely necessary. So your story is a fantastic story but also makes me think of all the other families where they don’t share perhaps the same spirit, you know, they are in areas of the world that are not as well connected or informed, where patient community simply cannot be ‘nucleated’, let’s say, around the family. So, there is definitely an issue of inclusivity and fair access.    So, what we’re trying to do at UPNAT, which is the UK Platform for Nucleic Acid Therapy, is to try to streamline the development both at preclinical and clinical level of nucleic acid therapies. So, we’ll start with antisense oligonucleotides just because those are the molecules of the class of drugs that are most ‘mature’, let’s say, in clinic. So, there are several antisense oligonucleotides already approved in the clinic, we know that they are reasonably safe, we understand them quite well, but of course the aspiration is to then progress into other forms of gene therapy, including gene editing approaches, for example.   And one of the activities that I’m involved, together with Professor Muntoni, is to try to streamline the regulatory process of such therapies and in particular curate a registry of, for example, side effects associated with nucleic acid therapy in the real world, and you would be surprised that this is something that is not yet available.  And the point is exactly that, it’s trying to understand and learn from previous mistakes perhaps or previous experiences more in general.    And this is very much in synergy with other activities in the UK in the rare disease domain.  I’m thinking of the Rare Disease Therapy Launchpad, I’m thinking of the Oxford Harrington Centre, I am thinking of the recently funded MRC CoRE in Therapeutic Genomics. These are all very synergistic. Our point is we want to try to amplify the voice of the patient, the voice of the clinicians working on rare disease, and we want to systematise. Because of course one of the risks of rare disease therapies is the fragmentation that we do all these things in isolation. And I would argue that the UK at the moment leveraging on the relatively flexible and independent regulatory agencies, such as the MHRA, on the enormous amount of genetics data available through Genomics England, and of course the centralised healthcare system, such as the NHS, is really probably the best place in the world to do research in the rare disease area, and probably I’m allowed to say it because I’m a non-UK native.       Ana Lisa: Thank you, that’s a brilliant perspective, Carlo, and across all the different therapeutic initiatives that you’re involved with. And, Carlo, presumably - we’re all hoping - these different initiatives will actually lead to ultimately a bigger scaling as more and more novel therapies that target both our RNA and DNA and actually are working, I guess further upstream in the pathway.    So classically in the past it’s been necessary to work out all the underlying biology, find a druggable target somewhere in that pathway and then get a larger enough clinical trial, which can be nearly impossible with many of the rare and ultra-rare conditions or even, as you’ve said, the sub-setting down of more common condition into rarer subtypes that perhaps can be treated in different ways.  And with the many new different treatments on the horizon, ASO therapies, as you’ve said, is a place that’s rapidly expanding, and also crisper gene editing. I’d be really interested to hear your reflections on how this might scale and also how it might extend to other new treatments.  Carlo: Yeah, that’s exactly the right word, ‘scaling up’. I mean, there will be of course very unique challenges to every single rare disease but I would argue that with genetic therapies, such as ASOs or crisper gene editing, the amount of functional work that you need to do in a lab to prove yourself and the scientific community that this is the right approach to go for can be certainly very important but can be less just because you’re addressing very directly because of the disease.    And then there are commonalities to all these approaches and possibly, you know, a platform approach type of regulatory approval might serve in that regard. You know, if you are using the same chemistry of these antisense oligonucleotides and, you know, similar doses, in a way the amount of work that you need to produce to again make sure that the approach is indeed a safe approach and an effective approach might be also reduced.    I would say that there are also challenges on other aspects of course, as you were saying, Ana-Lisa. Certainly the typical or standard randomised placebo control trial that is the standard and ultimate trial that we use in a clinical setting to prove that a molecule is better than a placebo is many times in the context of rare diseases simply not possible, so we need to think of other ways to prove that a drug is safe and is effective.   This is something that we all collectively as a scientific community are trying to address, and the alliance with the regulatory agencies, such as the MHRA, and you said that you have found your interaction with the MHRA very positive, and I can tell you exactly the same. So we are all trying to go for the same goal, effectively, so trying to find a way to systematise, platformise these sort of approaches. And I guess starting with antisense oligonucleotides is really the right place to go because it’s a class of drugs that we have known for a long time, and we know it can work.  Ana Lisa: Meriel, can you tell us a little about the National Genomic Research Library at Genomics England and how this could link with initiatives to find many more patients as new treatments become available for rare and ultra-rare conditions?  Meriel: Yes, I think what’s wonderful now is actually that what we’re really trying to do is give everybody the opportunity to have their rare condition specifically diagnosed at the molecular level, and the way in which that is being done is by offering whole genome sequencing in the NHS currently in England but to all patients with rare diseases.    And so, it’s about trying to establish their diagnosis. And as well as that, even if the diagnosis isn’t definitely made at the first pass when the clinical scientists look at the data, because the whole genome has been sequenced, actually all that information about their genome, if they consent, can then be put into the National Genomics Research Library.  And that is a fantastic resource for national and international researchers who get approved to work in this trusted research environment to make new disease gene discoveries and identify these diagnoses for patients.  What’s also offered by Genomics England as well is when the National Genomics Library data results in a new publication, the discovery of a new gene or perhaps a new molecular mechanism that causes a disease we already know about, that feeds back into the diagnostic discovery pathway within Genomics England back onto the diagnostic side of all the data.    So, patients who may have had genetic testing previously using whole genome sequencing where they’ve, if you like, had their sequencing done before the diagnosis was sort of known about, will also be picked up. And so, what this is really doing is trying to kind of give this really equal platform for everybody having testing to all have the same opportunity to have their diagnosis made, either on the diagnostic side or with research.  Ana Lisa: So, sort of on a cohort-wide scale as new discoveries are made and published you can go back and find those patients that may actually have that diagnosis and get it back to them, which is brilliant.  Meriel: Exactly. And this speeds up the whole process of getting these diagnoses back to people. So on a regular basis in the NHS, we will get feedback from the Diagnostic Discovery Pathway about “Here’s some patients who you requested whole genome sequencing from a number of years ago and actually now we think we know what the particular molecular condition is.”  And so, it’s key of course for our patients with rare conditions to make that molecular diagnosis because then we’re able to have them identified for our colleagues who are doing this ground-breaking research trying to bring therapies for these rare conditions.  Ana Lisa: Thank you. And I hope that, as currently, if a novel genetic mechanism, as you’ve just described, is identified that could explain a rare condition that those patients can be found and they can receive that diagnosis, even many years later, and hopefully as novel treatments become available and say there’s a chance to individualise ASO therapies, for example, to start with, that one could also go and look for patients with particular variants that could be amenable potentially to that treatment. And that’s really sort of exciting that one could look for those patients across England, irrespective of which clinic they’re under, which specialist they’re under, and I think that could be really powerful as new treatments develop. I suppose, Meriel, if somebody comes to see you now in clinic are things different?  Meriel: Well, I think one of the things for me when patients come to clinic now is we might have an idea about what we think their condition is, maybe even we think it’s a specific gene. And we can offer whole genome sequencing and so it’s not just the way we used to do things before by looking just at the coding regions of the gene, we can find more unusual ways in which the gene can be perturbed using whole genome sequencing.  But let’s say we don’t make the diagnosis. I encourage my patients, if they’re comfortable with it, to join the National Genomics Research Library, because really it’s been incredibly productive seeing the new genetic discoveries that are coming out of that, but as well I say to them, even if we don’t get the diagnosis the first time round when we look at the data, actually this is a constant cycle of relooking at their data, either if they’re in the NGRL or as well on the Diagnostic Discovery Pathway side of the service that’s run by Genomics England. So yeah, I feel like it’s a very big difference; they don’t have to keep coming every year and saying, “Is there a new test?” because actually they’ve had an excellent test, it’s just developing our skills to really analyse it well.  Ana Lisa: Yes, and our knowledge, the technology and the skills keep evolving, certainly.  And I think one of the things that I’m sort of hearing from this conversation is that balance of hope and realism, Carlo we were talking about earlier how you need all the pieces of the puzzle to be lined up - so the regulatory agency, the clinicians, all the preclinical work has to have been done, monitoring afterwards for side effects - every piece of the puzzle has to be lined up for a new treatment to make it to a patient.    And, Anne, I’d like to come back to you because we’ve talked about this before, how one balances these messages of optimism and hope which are needed for bringing everybody together as a community to crack some of these very difficult challenges highlighted by treatments for rare and ultra-rare conditions and at the same time the need for realism, a balance conversation.  Anne: Yeah, that was one of our big learnings through the gene therapy trial and other trials we’ve had in the condition. As a rare disease charity, you do everything. You know, my title is CEO, but I tell people that’s Chief Everything Officer because there’s only a few of you and you do everything. So, you go and you lead the London Hope Walk and you also are a layperson on the Scientific Advisory Board and you also send out the emails about grants... And so, you could easily as a small rare disease charity conflate different communication messages because you’re in a certain mode.  And so we have been from the early days in the mode of raising hope for people to say, “Look, we can make a difference as a patient community, we could raise funds, we might be able to move things forward, you’ve got the power to make a difference if you want to.” That’s one set of hope.  And it’s not dreamlike hope, we’re linked to the reality of there are great breakthroughs.  So, you know, in the world of spinal muscular atrophy these clinical trials have led somewhere very quickly, so we’re not selling false hope, we’re talking about the difference we can make.    But then as soon as you flip into “There’s a clinical trial being run” that’s a completely different type of communication and you cannot conflate that message with the previous message.  And we always say to everybody, “We’re your team, we’re a family, we’re a team, we all help each other.  When you are considering joining a clinical trial your team is the clinical trial team.    The other team does other things for you but the people you need to work with and ask hard questions of and listen hard to, that’s your clinical trial team led by the principal investigator because then you’re in that with them. And, you know, the reality of the fact that many, many clinical trials don’t work as we wish they would be and the decision you make for your child, your baby, your little one, to join a clinical trial… because that’s what it comes down to in our disease, has to be made with that team, not the team that’s selling you a fundraising event. It’s worth reminding rare disease patient organisations we’re wearing different hats and the hope and the realism are different tracks you have to go down.    But at the same time as being realistic you also have to keep remembering that there is still grounds for hope, we are moving forward. And 21 years ago, when Tom was born the idea that you would be able to get all of the muscles in the body to switch back on – putting it in lay terms – seemed like a bit dream. Well, that is what has happened in the gene therapy clinical trial, we just have to now make it safer and understand more about what we’re dealing with. So, the 2 things, the hope and the realism, do exist side by side.  Ana Lisa: I think that perfectly encapsulates a lot of the messages around rare disease therapies where there’s such hope that novel treatments will really target directly the DNA or RNA to potentially correct the problem across many different rare conditions and therefore actually making treatments one day suddenly available to a much, much bigger population of people with rare conditions than we could’ve dreamt of 20 years ago or perhaps now, and at the same time this massive need to work cooperatively to all make this as fair, as equitable. Not everybody is going to have the opportunity to fundraise massively to be an expert about their condition, and the importance of sharing these learnings and also really, really listening to the patient community and really, as Carlo was saying, keeping track of side effects, having registries/databases to share these is going to be incredibly important.  [Music plays]  Ana Lisa:  Anne, can you tell us a little about your reflections on equity from the patient community perspective?  Anne: Well I mentioned serendipity early and one of the aspects of serendipity that played into our favour for setting up the Myotubular Trust was that by hook or by crook Wendy Hughes, who set up the charity with me, and I were both able to devote time at that period of our lives to setting up a charity. When my husband, Andrew, and I were told that Tom would more than likely die before his first birthday, one of the decisions we made as a family was that he would never not be with a parent, we would always have someone around, and that kind of meant someone had to give up a full-time job and that was me.  We thought, “If Tom has a few scarce months on the planet, we’ll be with him.” And then when Tom lived to be nearly 4, as a family we got used to living on one salary and we were very lucky that we could pay the mortgage that way and run our family that way and eventually that meant I had the time to run the charity.    That doesn’t happen that easily, that’s a tall order, particularly when you have somebody in the family who has such high needs. And one of the things that I have often thought about is that in the rare disease space we could do with a different funding model for rare disease charities, we could, in an ideal world I have this nirvana that I imagine where there’s a fund that you can apply to that is contributed to by the people who make profits out of finding rare disease cures - so the pharmaceutical companies and the biotechs - and there’s a fund that they contribute to and that if you have a rare disease and you are willing to set up an organisation that supports families, that raises research funds, that provides a way of hearing the patient voice, then you could apply to that for running cost funds and then you’d be able to run this charity. And then you wouldn’t have to rely on whether you live in an area where people will raise money for you or…  We were very lucky that we came across a few great benefactors who would give us money for running the charity, which is actually how we fund it.    All the research money we raise goes 100% into research, not a penny of it goes towards running costs because we have serendipitously found people who will be benefactors for the charity, but we’re relying on a lot of good luck for that kind of model to work. And when you look at how much profit is made from developing rare disease treatments and cures – which is fine because that’s what puts the passion and that gets people working on it – then why not have an advance fund to run rare disease charities? One of my nirvana dreams.  Ana Lisa: It’s good to dream. Indeed, my hope is that there will be some amazing shining examples that lead the way that open doors, make things possible, prove that something can work and how and that then that will enable many other treatments for many additional rare conditions to be added in so that if you’ve learnt how this particular treatment modality works for this rare condition and there was funding behind it and everything else that’s needed that then you can, the learning from that, I’m going to use the word ‘tweak’, which sounds minor and could be very major but actually the concept that you can then tweak all those learnings and findings so that that same type of treatment modality could be adapted to treat somebody else with a different rare condition in a different location would be absolutely incredible and really powerful, given that if something like 85% of rare conditions affect less than one in a million people it’s not going to be feasible to use the same strategies that have been used in the past for very common conditions.    One of the other big barriers is the cost of developing treatment for ultra-rare conditions.  Where it’s a small number of patients that you have and therefore all the challenges that come with monitoring, checking for efficacy, monitoring safety and ultimately funding the challenges are much greater, however if some of these treatment modalities are also going to be used to treat common conditions it might be that actually there’s a lot more cross-talk between the nano-rare, ultra-rare, rare and common conditions and that we can share a lot of that learning. I’d love to hear from each of you where you hope we will be for rare disease and rare therapies.  Carlo: Well my dream is that in 5 to 10 years’ time an individual with a rare disease is identified in the clinic, perhaps even before symptoms have manifested, and at that exact time the day of the diagnosis becomes also a day of hope in a way where immediately the researcher, the centre, genetics lab, flags that there are the specific mutations, we know exactly which is the best genetic therapy to go after, antisense oligonucleotides as opposed to CRISPR editing, and a path forward, both at the preclinical and clinical level, to demonstrate and to cure these patients eventually is already laid out in front of the patient.  So, transforming the day of their diagnosis as a day of hope, this is my dream with the next ten years.  Ana Lisa: Thank you, that’s a wonderful dream. Meriel, can I come to you?  Meriel: Yes, I think I just want to echo Carlo.  We’ve had great developments and progress with getting whole genome sequencing into the NHS for testing but what we really need is for it to be fast and efficient and getting those diagnoses established quickly. And we have had that set up now and we’re really getting there in terms of speed, but then what we need is exactly what’s the next step and actually structure like UPNAT that are developing these processes that we can then say to the patient, “And from there, now that we’ve established your diagnosis, this is what we have options to offer.”  Ana Lisa: Brilliant. And presumably that if the diagnosis isn’t achieved now there is a hope that it will be achieved in the future as well. Anne...  Anne: Well, stepping one hundred per cent into the patient’s shoes rather than the scientific side that we don’t so much influence....  stepping in the patient’s shoes, in 5 years’ time I would absolutely love it if we were in a situation where all the parties that have come to the table looking at a therapy or in the earlier research genuinely want to bring the patient voice into the room. As Carlo talked about, there’s even going to be more and more and more of these rare diseases, then those voices, those few people who have experience of it, they may be able to shed light on something. Maybe even sometimes don’t even know it’s a fact that they know but that were brought to the table as passionately as everything else is brought to the table.  [Music plays]  Ana Lisa: We’ll wrap up there. Thank you so much to our guests, Anne Lennox, Carlo Rinaldi and Meriel McEntagart, for joining me today as we discuss the collaborative power of working together and look to the future of rare therapies that could have the potential to unlock treatments for many rare conditions. If you’d like to hear more like this, please subscribe to Behind the Genes on your favourite podcast app.  Thank you for listening.  I’ve been your host, Ana-Lisa Tavares. This podcast was edited by Bill Griffin at Ventoux Digital and produced by Naimah Callachand.  

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  46:08
• Dr Gavin Arno, Kate Arkell, Bhavini Makwana and Naimah Callachand: Can genomic research close the diagnostic gap in inherited sight loss?

  In this episode, our guests explore the impact of genetic discoveries on inherited retinal dystrophies, in particular retinitis pigmentosa (RP). The discussion highlights a recent study that identified two non-coding genetic variants linked to RP, predominantly in individuals of South Asian and African ancestry. The conversation highlights how advances in whole genome sequencing are uncovering previously hidden causes of genetic disease, improving diagnostic rates, and shaping the future of patient care. It also addresses the challenges faced by individuals from diverse backgrounds in accessing genetic testing, including cultural barriers, awareness gaps, and historical underrepresentation in genomic research. Our host Naimah Callachand is joined by researcher Dr Gavin Arno, Associate Director for Research at Greenwood Genetic Centre in South Carolina, Kate Arkell, Research Development Manager at Retina UK, and Bhavini Makwana, a patient representative diagnosed with retinitis pigmentosa and Founder and Chair of BAME Vision. We also hear from Martin Hills, an individual diagnosed with autosomal dominant retinitis pigmentosa. To access resources mentioned in this episode: Access the Unlock Genetics resource on the Retina UK website Visit the BAME vision website for more information and support Find out more about the groundbreaking discovery of the RNU4-2 genetic variant in the non-coding region which has been linked to neurodevelopmental conditions in our podcast episode   "Discoveries like this lead to better clinical management. We understand better the progression of the disease when we can study this in many individuals from a wide spectrum of ages and different backgrounds. We can provide counselling as Bhavini was talking about. We can provide patients with a better idea of what the future may hold for their eye disease, and potentially, you know, we are all aiming towards being able to develop therapies for particular genes and particular diseases."   You can download the transcript or read it below. Naimah: Welcome to Behind the Genes.   Bhavini: The few common themes that always come out is that people don’t really understand what genetic testing and counselling is. They hear the word counselling, and they think it is the therapy that you receive counselling for your mental health or wellbeing. There is already a taboo around the terminology. Then it is lack of understanding and awareness or where to get that information from, and also sometimes in different cultures, if you have been diagnosed with sight loss, you know blindness is one of the worst sensory things that people can be diagnosed with. So, they try and hide it. They try and keep that individual at home because they think they are going to have an outcast in the community, in the wider family, and it would be frowned upon).  Naimah: My name is Naimah Callachand and I am Head of Product Engagement and Growth at Genomics England.  I am also one of the hosts of Behind the Genes. On today’s episode I am joined by Gavin Arno, Associate Director for Research at Greenwood Genetic Centre in South Carolina, Kate Arkell, Research Development Manager at Retina UK, and Bhavini Makwana, patient representative.  Today we will be discussing findings from a recently published study in the American Society of Human Genetics Journal which identified two non-coding variants as a cause of retinal dystrophy in people commonly of South Asian and African ancestry. If you enjoy today’s episode, we’d love your support. Please like, share, and rate us on wherever you listen to your podcasts.  Okay, so first of all I would like to ask each of the three of you to introduce yourselves. Bhavini, maybe we’ll start with you.  Bhavini: Hi, I’m Bhavini Makwana, patient representative, and also Chair of BAME Vision. I have other roles where I volunteer for Retina UK, and I work for Thomas Pocklington Trust.  Naimah: Thanks Bhavini. Gavin.  Gavin: Hi, my name is Gavin Arno, I am Associate Director for Research at the Greenwood Genetic Centre in South Carolina, and I am Honorary Associate Professor at the UCL Institute of Ophthalmology in London.  Naimah: Thanks Gavin. And Kate.   Kate: Hi, I’m Kate Arkell, Research Development Manager at Retina UK.   Naimah: Lovely to have you all today. So, let’s get into the conversation then. So Gavin, let’s come to you first. First of all, what is retinitis pigmentosa and what does it mean to have an inherited retinal dystrophy?  Gavin: So, retinitis pigmentosa is a disorder that affects the retina at the back of the eye. It is a disease that starts in the rod photoreceptor cells. So, these cells are dysfunctional and then degenerate causing loss of peripheral and night vision initially, and that progresses to include central vision and often patients will go completely blind with this disease. So, retinal dystrophies are diseases that affect the retina. There are over 300 genes known to cause retail dystrophy so far, and these affect different cells at the back of the eye, like retinitis pigmentosa that affects the rods. There are cone rod dystrophies, ones that start in the cone photoreceptors, macular dystrophies that start in the central retina, and other types of retinal dystrophies as well.  Naimah: Thanks Gavin. And Bhavini, just to come next to you. So, you received a diagnosis of retinitis pigmentosa at the age of 17 after a genetic change was found in the RP26 CERKL gene. At this time only ten other families in the UK had been identified with this type of genetic alteration. Would you mind sharing a bit more about your journey to your diagnosis?  Bhavini: Yeah. So, at the age of 17 is when I got officially diagnosed with retinitis pigmentosa, but leading up to that I was experiencing symptoms such as night blindness. So, I struggled really badly to see in the dark, or just in dim lighting, like this time of the year in winter when it gets dark quite easily, all my friends from college could easily walk across the pavement, but I struggled. I was bumping into a lot of things. Like things that I wouldn’t really see now that I know my peripheral vision, I was losing that, so like lamp posts or trees or bollards, I would completely miss or bump into them. I was missing steps, and had a really, really bad gaze to the sun. Like, everything was really hazy. That continued and I just put it down to stress of exams. You know, just given that age and where I was at the time of my life. But then it kind of continued. So, I went to the see the optician who then referred me, and after months of testing I got diagnosed with retinitis pigmentosa. Back in the late 90s when I was diagnosed there wasn’t really anything about genetic testing, or cures., or treatments. I was basically just told to get on with it, and that was it.   It was only until about 15/16 years later I came across Retina UK, started understanding what retinitis pigmentosa is, and what it means, and then when I was offered genetic testing and counselling at one of my annual Moorfields appointments, they explained to me what it involved, what it could mean, what kind of answers I would get, and I agreed to take part. It was a simple blood test that myself and both my parents took part in.      Naimah: Thanks for sharing that Bhavini. So, I know you were able to receive a diagnosis through whole genome sequencing in the 100,000 Genomes Project after the alteration in the gene was found, and this was found in the coding region of the genome. But in this study that we are talking about in this podcast, we know that the two genetic changes that were found, they were in the non-coding region of the genome. Gavin, could you tell me in simple terms what the difference is between the coding and non-coding region of the genomes and why these findings are significant in this case?   Gavin: Yes, sure. So, the human genome is made up of about 3 billion letters or nucleotides which are the instructions for life essentially. Now, within that human genome there are the instructions for roughly 20,000-25,000 proteins. This is what we call the coding genome. These are the bits of DNA that directly give the instructions to make a protein. Now, we know that that part of the genome is only roughly 2% of the entire genome, and the remaining 98% is called the non-coding genome. Now, we understand that far less well. We have a far poorer understanding of what the function of the non-coding genome is versus the coding genome. So, typically molecular diagnostic testing or genetic testing is focused on the coding genome, and historically that has been the fact. Now with advances in genome technologies like whole genome sequencing and the 100,000 Genomes Project, we are able to start to look at the non-coding genome and tease out the previously poorly understood causes of genetic diseases that may lie within those regions of the genes.   Naimah: Thanks Gavin, I think you have just really highlighted the possibilities available with looking at the non-coding region of the genome.  Kate, coming to you next. I wanted to talk about the importance of uncovering and understanding genetic causes of inherited retinal dystrophies, and how do discoveries like these change the landscape of care for patients with inherited retinal dystrophies?  Kate: So, getting a genetic diagnosis can really help families affected by inherited retinal dystrophy. It helps them and their ophthalmologists to better understand their condition, and in some cases gain some insight into possible prognosis, which helps people feel a lot more in control. It can also potentially inform family planning decisions and even open up options around access to reproductive technologies for example, not only for the individual, but sometimes also for their close relatives. Of course, researchers are making great strides towards therapies, some of which have reached clinical trials. But a lot of these approaches are gene specific, so for people who know their genetic diagnosis, they are more able to recognise research that is most relevant to them and quickly pick out potential opportunities to take part. At the moment it is still the case that around 30% of our community who have a genetic test will not receive a clear result, and that can feel very frustrating. So, the more discoveries like this that are made, the better.   Naimah: Thanks Kate.  So, now we are going to hear a clip from Martin Hills, our Retina UK patient representative who has been diagnosed with autosomal dominant retinitis pigmentosa. Martin has undergone genetic testing and shares more about his experience.  Martin: My name is Martin Hills, and I was officially diagnosed with autosomal dominant retinitis pigmentosa in 2001, and because of that I immediately had to stop driving which made a huge impact both on myself and my family.  My eyesight has slowly deteriorated over the years. It first started with difficulty seeing at night, and also playing some types of sport, which I think probably was in my 20s. My peripheral vision has been lost slowly and now has completely gone. Fortunately, I still have some reasonable central vision left which is a great help. I am registered as severely sight impaired, and I am also a symbol cane user. My father and aunt were both diagnosed with this condition, and my daughter has been relatively recently, as has altogether eight members of our wider family, and that also includes two younger generations. In 2015 I went for genetic counselling and testing and at that time it was for 176 genes known to be associated with retinal dystrophies. I believe that has now gone up to about 300, but at the time they couldn’t recognise what my faulty gene was, and that has still been the case to my knowledge to date.   I have also been part of the 100,000 Genome Project along with several others of my wider family, and I am also a participant in the UK Inherited Retinal Dystrophy Consortium RP Genome Project, which has been sponsored by Retina UK. The impact of not having a positive genetic test result is quite interesting and has really been a rollercoaster. I guess it is all about hope, and to start with when I knew I was going to be genetically tested, I think my first reaction was optimism, and I think if you have a positive test result, that is a real hope for the future. I think that is quite exciting particularly as things seem to be progressing so rapidly. But because I didn’t get a positive result, the next reaction I had really was disappointment because I felt one step behind people with a positive result. Of course the natural reactions are one of frustration, and then I guess followed by realisation of the situation, and heading towards trying to adjust and making coping strategies for the future.  I still feel that genetic testing for all forms of medical conditions is so important and has a huge future in understanding and then potential treatments for so many medical issues. I guess it might be a bit too late for me, but if I can contribute to finding a restorative treatment for the younger generations of my family, and for that matter other people, then I think that is good enough for me.   Naimah: So, we have just heard from Martin that although he has not been able to have a positive genetic test result, his involvement in various studies may have benefits in helping others find treatment. So, I guess on that point Bhavini, maybe you could comment, or ask you how you felt whenever you were about to get a diagnosis through whole genome sequencing?  Bhavini: Yes. When I got called in almost three and a half years after the testing that took place was a massive, massive relief because not only did I get genetic counselling before the testing period, but I got called in and I spoke to a genetic counsellor who explained what they had been able to find and what kind of RP it was, how it would progress, and just answer so many questions. I am the mother of two daughters and even having two children, I lost a lot of sight after my first daughter, but at that time there wasn’t any evidence or there wasn’t any … you know, there was nothing I even knew about what questions to ask or anything, so I did go on to have a second child and drastically lost more sight. I had always been told, because the lack of awareness and understanding of RP in my family, and I am one of four children, and I am the only one that has it, so there is no other family history. Now I know it could have skipped generations, but I was always told things like it was karma. I must have done something in my past life. I was told to kind of have these herbs or these remedies to cure my sight loss, you know my RP. I was even desperate enough to kind of …  all these bogues treatments that you find online. You know, anything. I was so desperate to find anything that would help me.   When I received that testing and the counselling, it explained so much about how my daughters may or may not be affected, how they are carriers, and that was explained to me, how it would progress. So many questions and worries that I had for almost a decade and a half, they were answered. And not only for me, for my family, and all those people that told me all these sorts of things that I used to worry about that could have caused my RP. I was able to explain it to them and they understood that it was nothing to do with me being bad in my past life. It was actually you know, there is something scientific about it. So, it kind of gave me lots and lots of answers, and actually I then created a private Facebook page just with my RP26 CERKL genetic that I have been diagnosed with, just to see if there is anybody else out there, because when I was diagnosed, I think at the time I was told there was only myself and nine other families in the UK diagnosed with this particular gene. Now, I haven’t been that active on it, but you know there are people across the world who found my post and joined the group, and we share experiences about the age that we were kind of diagnosed, the kind of rate the symptoms have developed. It is so fascinating because we have got such similar experiences.   There is parents on there who are there on behalf of their children, and it is just so nice to see … I know it is RP, but the specific gene and the rate of which we have experienced all the symptoms, it is quite similar. So, it has been quite supportive and helpful and reassuring to my family including my daughters.  Naimah: That’s incredible Bhavini and it’s really nice that you have created that group and created kind of like a support network for all the other families that have been affected by the same genetic condition as well. Yeah, that’s incredible. Gavin, I know the findings in the study show that the genetic changes in this study are more common in people of African and South Asian ancestry. So, so I want to understand why is this an impactful finding in the study?  Gavin: Yes, so Kate mentioned that around 30% of people with inherited retinal dystrophies who have genetic testing don’t get a molecular diagnosis and we are working in my research lab and many other research labs to improve that. Now, that figure is very much higher in patients of for example African ancestry in the UK, and this is partly due to the fact that historically and even now genetic studies have been focused on European individuals and taken place in the US, and the UK, and Europe, and wealthy countries across the world. This means that people of African ancestry are poorly represented in genetic studies, not just genetic studies of genetic disease, but population studies as well. So, we have less of an understanding of the genetic variants found in the genomes of individuals of African ancestry. So, that means we solve less of the genetic cases, particularly at Moorfields we published a paper on this several years ago with the diagnostic rates in European patients versus those of African ancestry, and it was very, very much lower. So, we need to do better for those patients, and this study identified a cause of retinitis pigmentosa in 18 families of African ancestry who were recruited to the 100,000 Genomes Project.   This is a fairly large proportion of the patients with RP of African ancestry seen at Moorfields Eye Hospital, and when we contacted collaborators around the world many more families were identified, and I think we ended up publishing around about 40 families who were affected by this particular mutation. So, we can look at that variant, we can look at the DNA sequence around that variant, and we found there is a chunk of DNA around the mutation in the gene that was coinherited by all of those different individuals. So, this is what we call an ancestral haplotype. It’s an ancient variant that goes back many, many generations and it has a fairly high carrier frequency in genomes of African ancestry. So, we think this will be a fairly significant cause of retinitis pigmentosa across the continent of Africa. And so, identifying it will enable us to provide a molecular diagnosis for those families. Potentially there will be many more families out there who don’t know they have this cause of disease yet. They may be affected but they haven’t yet received genetic testing.   But discoveries like this lead to better clinical management. We understand better the progression of the disease when we can study this in many individuals from a wide spectrum of ages and different backgrounds. We can provide counselling as Bhavini was talking about. We can provide patients with a better idea of what the future may hold for their eye disease, and potentially you know we are all aiming towards being able to develop therapies for particular genes and particular diseases. As Kate mentioned many of the gene therapies are gene specific, so if we identify a cause of disease that is predominant like this and affects many, many people, then of course there is more interest from the pharmaceutical industry to develop a therapy for that specific gene.  Naimah: Thanks Gavin. I think that really does showcase how impactful these findings really are. Kate, can I come to you. So, Gavin touched on it there that people with African and Asian ancestry are significantly less likely to get diagnosed, but why is it important to ensure that these groups are represented in the genomic datasets?  Kate: So, we need to ensure that genetic testing and diagnostic accuracy works for everyone, and not just those of European ancestry. So, as Gavin said if the datasets don’t reflect the genetic variations seen in African or Asian populations, then the tests based on those data are more likely to give incomplete results for those groups of people. We really need a diverse range of genetic information for researchers to work on. As it is clear from this study’s results, populations from African backgrounds for example may have unique genetic mutations linked to retinal dystrophy. So, if those are really underrepresented in datasets based on European populations, that is obviously going to present a problem. Gavin mentioned access to treatment. We need to overcome some of these disparities in healthcare access, and   inclusion of broad spectrum of genetic data is actually a foundation for that.   Naimah: Thanks Kate.  So underrepresented groups are often less likely to know about genetic testing due to a combination of social economic and systemic factors that create barriers to access information. Cultural taboos can also play a significant role in shaping attitudes towards genetic testing, and I think Bhavini you kind of touched on this slightly with some of your experiences. I wonder, did you experience any of these cultural taboos?  Bhavini: Yes, some of them, but I think by the time I was informed about what genetic testing and counselling is I had come across Retina UK and I had already started having that background knowledge, so when that was offered to me, I actually had a basic understanding. But as Chair of BAME Vision I work with a lot of ethnic communities, and when I speak about my own personal experience about receiving genetic testing and counselling, I kind of break it down into my own language, and the few common themes that always come out is people don’t really understand what genetic testing and counselling is. They hear the word counselling, and they think it is the therapy that you receive counselling for your mental health or wellbeing.  So, again there is already a taboo around the terminology. Then it is lack of understanding and awareness, or where to get that information from. Also sometimes in different cultures, if you have been diagnosed with sight loss, you know blindness is one of the worst sensory things that people can be diagnosed with, so they try and hide it. They try and keep that individual at home, because they think they are going to have an outcaste in the community and the wider family, and you will be frowned upon, people will talk really bad.   So, it is not really common knowledge, so they don’t even talk about it. So, there is a lot of layers to unpick there. That is one of the priority areas in 2025 that we at BAME Vision are going to be working on to try and raise that awareness in different communities about what genetic testing is, what it could mean, how to get genetic testing if it is not offered to you at your own clinic. There is a lot of work I know Retina UK have done, so working with them, and how we can reach different communities to raise that awareness.  Naimah: That’s great. You have touched on how important the education piece is. I wonder, do you have any other examples of how healthcare providers and genetic counsellors might better engage communities to ensure that they are receiving the care that they need?  Bhavini: Yeah, absolutely. So, I think having information in different languages is essential, and I don’t expect to have lots and lots of leaflets in different languages. Whether it is audio form or whether there is different professionals within that setting that speak different languages that can communicate to those patients, or even their family or friends that could translate. I think language is definitely something. And having representation, so like different people who have accessed this and sharing their story and going out into community groups and sort of sharing those messages, is definitely what has been working for us, and we have been doing that on other topics that we have used.  Naimah: Yes, they all sound like really important ways to try and engage with different communities. You have already mentioned how amazing that Retina UK have been and the support that you have received from them. So, I wonder Kate, if you could tell us a bit more about the support that is available for those with inherited sight loss, and how these resources can support people from underrepresented groups as well.  Kate: So, we have a range of support services at Retina UK most of which involve our fantastic team of volunteers, one of whom is Bhavini, who are all personally affected by inherited retinal dystrophy themselves. So, they are all experts by experience so to speak. The team also does include members of the Asian community as well. So, if somebody makes a call to our helpline, they will be able to speak to somebody who genuinely understands what they are going through, which can be a lifeline for those who are feeling isolated and especially I think as Bhavini mentioned, if they feel unable to talk openly with their own family and certainly within their community. We have a talk and support service that offers ongoing more regular telephone support as well as in-person and online peer support groups where people can make social connections with others in similar situations. I think Bhavini has mentioned that she herself runs our London and Southeast local group.  We also have an information resource called Unlock Genetics. That explains genetics in understandable language and clearly explains how people can access testing and what that will involve. So, we have stories on there from people who have gone through the process and talk about that. So, that is available on our website, and we can provide it in audio format as well.  Naimah: So Gavin, looking to the future, what does this research mean for patients with sight loss and their families? What does this mean in the future?  Gavin: So, I think now that we have access to whole genome sequencing through projects like the 100,000 Genomes Project, we are able to start the process of understanding new causes of disease that are found outside of the coded region.  So, we can now look for non-coding variants that cause disease which was previously not possible because genetic testing was focused on 2% of the genome. As we make discoveries like this these will inform future studies. So, the more we identify this type of variant and are able to functionally test the effect on the gene or the protein, we are able to use that information to lead future tests. What this needs is large population datasets to be able to analyse these sorts of variants at scale. The more genomes we have the better our understanding will be of our population frequencies, and the key thing is here for inherited retinal dystrophies, all of these variants that we are identifying are very, very rare. So, we only find them in a very small number of individuals affected with disease, and an infinitely smaller number of individuals in the unaffected general population. So, the larger that population dataset is that we can study, the better we can understand the rarity of these variants and pick those out from the many, many millions of non-pathogenic or harmless variants that we find in the genomes of all the individuals.  Naimah: Do you think the paper will help lead the way for diagnosis of other conditions in African and South Asian communities?    Gavin: Yes. The better we understand causes like this, and we are now at the point where most of the genes that cause retinal dystrophy have been identified already, so the remaining causes to be identified will be these more difficult to find cases, non-coding variants, structural variants, which we haven’t touched on today which are larger rearrangements of the genome. These things are harder to find, harder to interpret, so the more that we find like this, the better our ability will be to interpret those sorts of variants. There are many similar findings coming out of genome studies like 100,000 Genomes Project. For example, there was a significant finding recently published on a non-coding RNU gene which causes a significant proportion of neurological disorders in the 100,000 Genomes Project. You need these studies to be able to drive forward the research in areas like this.   Naimah: Thanks Gavin, and the discovery that you are mentioning is the RNU4-2 gene that was discovered earlier this year. You can hear more about that on our other podcast on our website which is ‘How has groundbreaking genome work discovery impacted thousands far and wide’ to learn more about that as well. But yeah, I agree it is another really great example of how impactful these findings can be. Okay, we’ll wrap up there. Thank you to our guests Gavin Arno, Kate Arkell, and Bhavini Makwana for joining me today as we discussed the findings from a recent study which has identified genetic changes responsible for retinal dystrophy, and people commonly of South Asian and African ancestry. If you’d like to hear more like this, please subscribe to Behind the Genes on your favourite podcast app. Thank you for listening. I have been your host and producer, Naimah Callachand, and this podcast was edited by Bill Griffin of Ventoux Digital.

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  29:47
• Dr Natalie Banner, Dr Raghib Ali, Professor Naomi Allen, Dr Andrea Ramírez: How can we unlock the potential of large-scale health datasets?

  In this episode, our guests discuss the potential of large-scale health datasets to transform research and improve patient outcomes and healthcare systems. Our guests also delve into the ethical, logistical, and technical challenges that come with these programmes. We hear how organisations such as UK Biobank, Our Future Health, and All of Us are collecting rich, diverse datasets, collaborating and actively working to ensure that these resources are accessible to researchers worldwide. Hosting this episode is Dr Natalie Banner, Director of Ethics at Genomics England. She is joined by Dr Raghib Ali, Chief Medical Officer and Chief Investigator at Our Future Health, Professor Naomi Allen, Professor of Epidemiology at the Nuffield Department of Population Health, University of Oxford, and Chief Scientist for UK Biobank, and Dr Andrea Ramírez, Chief Data Officer at the All of Us Research Program in the United States. "There are areas where academia and the NHS are very strong, and areas where industry is very strong, and by working together as we saw very good examples during the pandemic with the vaccine and diagnostic tests etc, that collaboration between the NHS and academia industry leads to much more rapid and wider benefits for our patients and hopefully in the future for the population as a whole in terms of early detection and prevention of disease." You can download the transcript or read it below.  Natalie: Welcome to Behind the Genes   Naomi: So, we talked to each other quite regularly. We have tried to learn from each other about the efficiencies of what to do and what not to do in how to run these large-scale studies efficiently. When you are trying to recruit and engage hundreds of thousands of participants, you need to do things very cost effectively. How to send out web-based questionnaires to individuals, how to collect biological samples, how the make the data easily accessible to researchers so they know exactly what data they are using.   All of that we are learning from each other. You know, it is a work in progress all the time. In particular you know, how can we standardise our data so that researchers who are using all of us can then try and replicate their findings in a different population in the UK by using UK Biobank or Our Future Health.    Natalie: My name is Natalie Banner, and I am Director of Ethics at Genomics England. On today’s episode we will be discussing how we can unlock the potential of large health datasets. By that I mean bringing together data on a massive scale, including for example genomic, clinical, biometric, imaging, and other health information from hundreds and thousands of participants, and making it available in a secure way for a wide range of research purposes over a long time period.   Through collaboration and industry partnerships, these programmes have the potential to transform research and deliver real world benefits for patients and health systems. But they also come with challenges ranging from issues in equity and ethics through to logistics, funding, and considerable technical complexities. If you enjoy today’s episode, we would love your support. Please like, share, and rate us on wherever you listen to your podcasts.     I’m delighted to be joined today by 3 fantastic experts to explore this topic. Dr Raghib Ali, Chief Medical Officer and Chief Investigator at Our Future Health. Professor Naomi Allen, Professor of Epidemiology at the Nuffield Department of Population Health, University of Oxford, and Chief Scientist for UK Biobank, and Dr Andrea Ramírez, Chief Data Officer at the All of Us Research Program in the United States.   Andrea, if I could start with you. It would be really great to hear about All of Us, an incredibly ambitious programme in the US, and maybe some of the successes it has achieved so far.   Andrea: Absolutely. Wonderful to be here with you and thank for you for the invitation. The All of Us Research Program started in 2016 from the Precision Medicine Initiative and was funded with the goal of recruiting 1 million or more participants into a health database. That includes information not only from things like biospecimens including their whole genome sequence, but also surveys that participants provide, and importantly linking electronic health record information and other public data that is available, to create a large database that researchers that access and use to study precision health.   We have recruited over 830,000 participants to date and are currently sharing available data on over 600,000. So, we’re excited to be with your audience, and I hope we can learn more and contribute to educating people listening about precision medicine.   Natalie: Thank you, Andrea. And not that this is competitive at all, but Raghib, as we are recording this, I understand the Our Future Health programme is marking quite a phenomenal milestone of 1 million participants. Would you mind telling us a little bit about the programme and something that you see as the benefits of working at scale for health research.   Raghib: Thank you very much. So, Our Future Health is a relatively new project. It was launched in 2020 with the aim of understanding better ways to detect disease as early as possible, predict disease, and intervene early to prevent common chronic diseases. Similar to All of Us, we are creating a very large database of participants who contribute their questionnaire data, physical data, genetic data, and linkage to healthcare records, with the aim as I said, to really improve our understanding of how best to prevent common chronic diseases.   So, we launched recruitment in October 2022. Our aim is to recruit 5 million participants altogether, and in the last 2 years about 1.85 million people have now consented to join the project. But you are right, as of last week we have what we call 1 million full participants, so people that have donated a blood sample, completed the questionnaire, and consented to link to their healthcare records. In our trusted research environment, we now have data on over 1million people available for researchers to use.   Of course, we have learnt a lot from the approach of UK Biobank, which we are going to hear about shortly, but the resource is open to researchers across the world, from academia, from the NHS, from industry, so that will hopefully maximise the benefits of that data to researchers, but as I say with a particular focus on early detection, early intervention, and prevention research.   Natalie: Thank you Raghib. Great to have you with us. Naomi, Raghib mentioned that UK Biobank has been running for a long time, since 2006.  It is a real success story in terms of driving a huge range of valuable research efforts.  Could you talk to us a little bit about the study and its history and what you have learned so far about the sort of benefits and some of the challenges of being able to bring lots of different datatypes together for research purposes?   Naomi: Yeah, sure. So, UK Biobank started recruiting 0.5 million participants in 2006 to 2010 from all across the UK with a view to generating a very deep dataset. So, we have collected information on their lifestyle, a whole range of physical measures. We collected biological samples, so we have data on their genomics and other biomarkers. Crucially because they recruited 15+ years ago, we have been able to follow up their health over time to find out what happens to their health by linkage to electronic healthcare records. So, we already have 8,000 women with breast cancer in the resource, cardiovascular disease, diabetes, and so on.   But perhaps most importantly, not only does it have great data depth, and data breadth, and the longitudinal aspect, is the data is easily accessible to researchers both from academia and industry, and we already have 18,000 researchers actively using the data as we speak, and over 12,000 publications already generating scientific discoveries from the resource.      Natalie: So, we have got 3 quite different approaches. Recruiting in different ways, different scale, different depth of data collection and analysis, but all very much around this ethos of bringing lots of different datatypes together for research purposes. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about how you might be sort of working together, even though you have got slightly different approaches. Are there things that you are learning from one another, from these different data infrastructures, or how might you be looking in the future to work together to address some of the challenges that might come up from working at scale?      Naomi: So, we talk to each other quite regularly. We have tried to learn from each other about the efficiencies of what to do and what not to do in how to run these large-scale studies efficiently. When you are trying to recruit and engage hundreds of thousands of participants, you need to do things very cost effectively. How to send out web-based questionnaires to individuals, how to collect biological samples, how to make the data easily accessible to researchers so they know exactly what data they are using.   All of that we are learning from each other, and you know it is a work in progress all the time. In particular, how can we standardise our data so that researchers who say are using All of Us can then try and replicate their findings in a different population in the UK by using UK Biobank or Our Future Health. So, can we come up with common standards so that researchers can better directly compare the data that they are using? So, we are in close contact with each other.   Natalie: Fantastic, thank you. And Andrea, from your perspective obviously you are collecting data in the US. Are you finding ways of working internationally and with other infrastructures like Biobank and Our Future Health around things like data standards? It sounds like something simple, but I can imagine it is quite complex in practice.   Andrea: Absolutely, and that dialogue and understanding and learning from each other both informally in meetings and talking as well through the published literature. So, all of these datasets are actively widely used, and seeing what is coming out in publications helps us know what researchers are doing with the data. And when you see different researchers either generating hypotheses from our datasets in a different way, or testing hypotheses differently, that helps us understand where some benefit might be added to our dataset or where we really may need to grow in a different direction to meet some other research needs.   I think that every study design always struggles with that balance between knowing exactly what we want to study and therefore building very specific questions and very specific protocols, but also allowing for the knowledge that we don’t really know all of the discovery we need to make and bringing in datapoints that will really generate those new hypotheses for the future.     I think for our study in particular, UK Biobank has been so remarkable in this way, helping structure All of Us to be able to contact our participants like UK Biobank and say, “Hey, we didn’t really know what we were going to get, but we have put all this wonderful data together and now we need to do a deeper dive.”   So, the engagement and long-term return of those UK Biobank participants has really enriched our data, and we have learnt from UK Biobank a lot there, and hope through growing our partnerships programme that we can continue to create partnered research opportunities to strengthen that data as well. That is a new thing coming out of our group. You may have heard of it previously as ancillary studies, but we recognise the partnership that is important for those research opportunities. So, we are reporting here that we are hoping to rebrand it to reach a larger audience, and that is led by Dr. Shelley, as partnered research opportunities that will allow us to re-contact, bring our participants back, and really deepen that dataset.   Natalie: Thank you. And Raghib, I know that it is a really important part of the Our Future Health model about going back to participants, but you are in quite early stages of working out what those opportunities might look like.   Raghib: Yes, very much early stages. Just to reiterate the point for me personally, having started my research in the UK about 20 years ago, I have certainly learnt a lot personally, but we have all learnt a lot from the model that UK Biobank established in terms of collecting data and providing it to researchers, and I see these 3 studies as very much complimentary.   All of Us again have done a lot more work in terms of providing feedback to participants about their risk of disease and genetic information, and as you say Our Future Health was set up deliberately to not just be a purely observational study, but to give participants feedback about their risk of different chronic diseases as well as the opportunity to take part in not just studies to collect data, but also interventional studies to see if we can change the natural history of disease and prevent diseases in our participants.   So, that has never really been done at scale before, and that is certainly a big challenge for us to do, not just in the UK, but anywhere, including the US and working with health systems as to how best to do that. So, you know we have spent the last 2 years really trying to understand how best to recruit participants and to provide data to researchers for the next couple of years, and long beyond that we will be looking really as to how we can maximise the benefits of providing feedback to participants and taking part in interventional studies.   Naomi: I think one way in which we can all learn from each other actually, is we know how to recruit hundreds of thousands of people, the general population, into research study, and the next challenge is how do you keep engaging them, telling them what you are doing. You can't collect everything when they first join the study, or they would be with you for days. So, what UK Biobank has been doing is sending out web-based questionnaires, a couple a year, to find out extra information about health outcomes, lifestyle factors. Inviting them back to specific assessment centres.   So, we are inviting 100,000 participants back for imaging, and then again over the next few years for a second scan. So, I think the real challenge here is once you have recruited them, how to find that right cadence of engaging those participants to keep contributing their data and their biological samples to really maximise the value of the dataset for research. That is an ongoing challenge for all of us. But I have to say, the UK Biobank participants, they are an amazing group of individuals, very altruistic.   Our Future Health and All of Us, we don’t give feedback, so there is nothing in it for our participants other than knowing that their data may help the future health of their children, and their grandchildren, and the rest of the world. So, that is very humbling, to know that the data that they have generated, and we have collected on them, is being used in that way.   Natalie: That’s a really interesting point, Naomi, about the difference between a research study that is designed for answering a particular question. You gather specific data for a specific purpose, and when it comes to recruiting participants into that you can be very clear about what it is you are trying to do.   But of course, for all of these programmes, the whole nature of them is that you are collecting a lot of data over a long period of time, and it could be used for all sorts of different purposes. You can't say at the outset exactly what those purposes might be and what those outcomes might be. So, there is a really interesting question, and of course I would say this with my ethics hat on, a really interesting question around sort of participant trust and confidence in those programmes.   Naomi, you spoke just then about one way of retaining engagement and retaining people’s interest, but I wonder Raghib and Andrea, if you have got thoughts on those sort of questions of how you can create that environment where participants can trust what you are doing with data over a long period of time, when you can't at the point at which they consent, say exactly how that data might be used? You have got a sense of the kinds of purposes, but you can't be too specific         Andrea: Sure. We know, and I have learnt from my own peers in this role, that enrolment in the study isn’t the end point of engagement. All of Us’s approach on engagement has been communicating with the entire community and really being there in the community, and that has been very powerful.   One effort over the last year we are proud of has been what we are dubbing participant driven enquiry, and that is where we say, “Thank you participants. We have gotten a ton of data out there for use, and funded researchers to use it all the time, but what do you, the participants, really want?” We were able to then take papers that researchers write and help tell participants and explain it in lay language, so the participants can say, “Hey, I have a question. Could you answer that for me?” Maybe we can, maybe we can't, but it has been very interesting to hear what participants want to know, and that participant driven enquiry project has turned out to be a big opportunity there.    The question they came to was not easy. Certainly, we didn’t expect an easy question, but they came to us asking, “Why is my diabetes worse than someone else’s? Is it the environment? Is it my genome? Is it my access to care? Why can't my diabetes be as well controlled as someone else’s?”  So, that has been huge, to interact directly with our participants and help really close the loop by answering questions in the language of research and show them how their data is contributing back.    Natalie: Thank you. And Raghib, how are you sort of grappling with these questions, particularly because you are recruiting so very heavily at the moment?   Raghib: So, as you say it is a challenge, and people do join the programme primarily based on trust that we will use their data for public health benefit and for the benefit of the whole population, but they also join on the basis that they will get back information about their own health and their risk of disease. To do both of those is not straightforward. I mean, the first of those, it has been well established by UK Biobank, and about 80% of our participants also say they are doing it primarily for to altruistic reasons, which is great. But 80% also said they would like to receive feedback about their own health, which is also understandable, and so we need to find ways to provide that in a timely way, but also in a way that the health service can manage. That is going to be one of our key challenges going forward.    But to echo what Naomi and Andrea have said, I mean to maintain participant’s engagement with the programme is not easy. We need to make sure that they are receiving information regularly, are kept up to date with what we are doing with their data, with the work that we are doing with academia, with the NHS, with industry etc. It is easier now than it was before because Our Future Health has been set up as a digital cohort, so we have means of communicating much more easily with our participants. But yeah, as you say we are at early stages. Over time that does get harder, to maintain that engagement. So, we know in the next one to 2 years we need to step up our work on feedback and recontact.   Natalie: Fantastic. I really love the idea of like the participant-led enquiry. That is something that I think our participant panel at Genomics England would really like to hear more about.   So, speaking about sort of ongoing engagement with participants, one of the challenges we know around recruiting into large-scale studies like this is that many research datasets don’t have equal representation from all communities. That might have an impact on the quality, the representativeness of the scientific outputs that you can generate, and potentially the benefits back to patients and participants.   How are you addressing this challenge in recruitment where you may have some communities that are not as engaged with scientific research. You may have elements of distrust or people being marginalised, having difficulty accessing research and these sorts of opportunities. Do you have any examples of what has worked really well? Raghib, if I could come to you first.   Raghib: Sure. So, I mentioned I worked on UK Biobank about 20 years ago. One of the things I was looking at then was how we could maximise participation, particularly of people from ethnic minorities into the project. Because of the age group that was chosen by UK Biobank for very good reasons, age 40 to 69, the proportion of people from ethnic minorities was relatively small. So, although it was representative for that age group, I think it was about 6%, or 34,000 out of the 500,000, that were from non-white ethnic minorities.   So, when Our Future Health was set up, we knew that the population has changed anyway. You know, the UK has become a much more ethnically diverse society. But also, because it is a cohort from 18+ and I think minorities tend to be younger on average than the white population, we knew we had an opportunity to really have a big step change in the number of people that could take part in a study like this. So, our aim is actually to get 10% of the whole cohort from ethnic minorities, so 500,000 out of the 5 million from ethnic minorities. Actually, so far we are pretty much on track. So, of the 1.8 million that have consented, about 180,000 are from non-white ethnic minorities.   That is extremely important, particularly for genetic research where non-European populations are very much underrepresented in nearly all genetic databases. Secondly, from a UK context, although it applies of course in all countries, is that people from more deprived backgrounds are also less likely to take part in this type of research. So again, we have made a very deliberate attempt to try and ensure we have adequate numbers from the most deprived quintile. Again, about 10% of the cohort so far, nearly 200,000 are from that most deprived quintile who both are underrepresented in research, but also have the worst outcomes. So, this is really our first study that has been big enough in the UK to look at that group properly and understand some of the factors at an individual level that we haven’t been able to in the past.   Finally, geographically, so the first time again because it is a digital cohort, we were able to recruit people from all over the UK. So, every single part of the UK is now represented in Our Future Health, particularly coastal communities and rural areas that haven’t been able to take part in this type of study before, as well as Northern Ireland. You know, for the first time we have got that full geographical coverage.   Natalie: Fantastic. I suppose a lot of that recruitment approach has very much been about going to where people are, rather than expecting them to come to you. Is that right?     Raghib: That is right and thank you for reminding me. So yeah, we have had a different approach. So, we have opened up many, many more clinics than previous studies through a combination of mobile units, shopping centres, community pharmacy. Community pharmacy in particular has been very important. So, to date we have had about 400 different venues that we have been able to recruit. That is over 1 million people that have given blood samples, and that has really enabled people from every part of the country to take part. Secondly, we have kept clinics open in areas of greater deprivation and ethnic diversity much longer than in other areas, to maximise the opportunity for them to join. Thirdly, we do provide reimbursement for people with expenses to ensure they aren’t excluded because of financial reasons, and again that has helped.    Natalie: So, really making those efforts is evidently paying off. Andrea, have you had similar experiences as All of Us? What has your approach been to try and ensure that you are getting a wider representation from different communities?    Andrea: It has really been a focus on the programme from the start to engage those who have not been included in research in the past and make sure the opportunity is there to participate. Our Engagement Division, led by Dr. Corrine Watson has really pioneered reaching those communities here in the US.   I think one other thing I will mention that we think about when we think about how to engage participants and reach people to return value back to those communities, is to make sure the people who are accessing the data also represent them, and we can build diversity within that researcher workforce. So, since our data was first released in 2020, we have recognised that the biomedical workforce also has a huge group of underrepresented individuals, and a lot of our researcher engagement and researcher outreach has focused on reaching those of diverse backgrounds and career paths.   To that end we have reached out and engaged historically black colleges as well as other minority serving institutions, really looking to make sure that their students and researchers can have the same access as more traditional research-based institutions in the US system.    That has been important because our system is built on cloud-based architecture and shared data that doesn’t require a huge cluster on campus, and that helps remove a barrier that some of those institutions and researchers may have had. We also know they haven’t been able to participate in the past, and we think that cloud architecture again can make the data much more feasible and be a huge support to diversifying the researcher workforce as we go forward. That circling back, helping them be the voices speaking to their community, helps build out that diverse participant community base as well.    Natalie: That’s such an important point, because it is not just about the participants and the data you can collect, but also who is able to look at it? Who is actually able to undertake the research?    Naomi, can I bring you in here? I know that UK Biobank has been thinking a lot about researcher access to data and trying to ensure that the data that you hold, the really rich datasets you hold in UK Biobank, are more accessible to researchers from different backgrounds who may not have the same level of resources. Can you tell us a little bit about the work you have been doing on that?   Naomi: Yeah. So, just following on from what Andrea said, it is really important to get as diverse ideas as possible from across the global research community to really move public health forward.   So, what UK Biobank has done is we are putting mechanisms in place so that early career students, and career researchers, and researchers at all levels of their career from lower income countries, can access the data at a much lower fee. So, currently for most researchers it costs about £9,000 to access all of the data. So, that is 40 petabytes of genomic data, biomarkers, clinical outcomes, lifestyle factors and so on. So, early career researchers and those in lower income countries, it is about £500.   On top of that a group of big pharmaceutical companies have got together to create a global researcher access fund, which essentially covers this reduced fee so that all researchers no matter where they are from have exactly the same opportunity to access the data to advanced scientific discoveries. So, on top of that all our researchers now use our online secure research analysis platform. While there is no charge to access the platform, there are costs associated with compute needed to analyse and store the results.    So, AWS have donated research credits for early career researchers and those from lower income countries up to a total of about $500,000 per year, to use the research platform. So, researchers can apply to use these research credits to offset the costs of compute and storage. So, that means that we are trying to democratise access to researchers from all around the world.   I think actually our biggest challenge is not so much … we have largely dealt with you know subsidising the cost. It is actually making researchers from lower income countries aware that these resources exist, and that are applicable to them.   So, sometimes we hear from say researchers in Africa or South America, “Well, there is no point accessing UK Biobank because it is not relevant to our population.” You know, a third of our researchers are from China. So, even if UK Biobank hasn’t got coverage of those racial ethnic populations, that doesn’t mean that the associations that you find between risk factors and disease risk are not applicable to other different populations. And that is also why having different resources like UK Biobank, like Our Future Health, like All of Us, in different populations around the world, is so important in order to replicate those findings.    Natalie: Absolutely, and fantastic just to hear the attention that is being paid to trying to ensure that diversity of different types of researchers who will just bring different questions to the table, different perspectives on the data, different priorities, different types of questions.    So, speaking about that diversity of researchers, one really important part of his ecosystem that we haven’t really touched on so far is around the role of industry. There are a lot of really important research questions being addressed by industry. Some that can only really come from, maybe it is pharmaceuticals, maybe it is tech.   From your perspectives, what kind of role can and should industry and commercial partners play in supporting the kinds of long-term research studies that you have set up, and ultimately trying to get to that point of sort of generating benefits back to patients and health systems. Naomi, can I start with you, for that sort of longer-term perspective for Biobank?   Naomi: So, industry are great partners for long-term studies like ours because they can bring additional funding, expertise, and technology. So, for UK Biobank, because it is so easily accessible to industry and academics alike on exactly the same terms, what it has meant is that industry, particularly big pharma and also now big tech, they can access the data, they see the value of the data for their own research purposes, and then they have invested into UK Biobank to do whole-exome sequencing, whole genome sequencing, proteomics at scale to increase the value of the dataset for their own drug discovery pipelines.   But of course, it means that the data that they have generated, which cost millions of dollars to generate, when you need deep pockets to do these kinds of study enhancements, then become available to all researchers. So, having access to these large-scale resources that have deep data on genomics, physical measures, other biomarkers, and clinical outcomes enables pharma to rapidly increase their drug discovery pipelines in generating new drugs and treatments for patients, and also those data are then shared with the rest of the global research community.     So, we found it to be a really exciting win/win in which industry get what they need to help move forward new drug targets and discovery, but also other researchers get what they need in order to make other scientific discoveries in different fields of research.        Natalie: Thank you. And Raghib, I know that for Our Future Health, that industry relationship is a really important part of the founding model. Will you tell us a little bit about how you are engaging and working with industry partners?   Raghib: Sure. So, as you said Our Future Health was set up in a different way, as a very public private partnership. Although the largest funder is the UK Government, more than half of our funding has come from a combination of life science companies, so pharmaceutical, diagnostic companies, as well as the medical charities, so the larger medical charities in the UK. That partnership is deliberate for all the reasons that Naomi has outlined. There are areas where academia and the NHS are very strong, and areas where industry is very strong, and by working together as we saw very good examples during the pandemic with the vaccine and diagnostic tests etc, that collaboration between the NHS and academia industry leads to much more rapid and wider benefits for our patients and hopefully in the future for the population as a whole in terms of early detection and prevention of disease. So, we have 16 life sciences companies that have joined as founding partners with Our Future Health who have contributed financially to the programme.    Equally importantly they have also contributed scientifically, so there is a huge amount of scientific expertise in industry, and they work with us with our Scientific Advisory Board with our scientists internally to think about the best use of the resource for drug discovery, diagnostics, new medical technologies, and new targets etc.    So, that is the vision, and so far, it is working well. It is a relatively new model to have set up a project like this in this way, but it has been a very collaborative approach, and we all recognise, all have similar aims, so recognise what we are working towards. You know, we meet regularly. We have a Joint Founders Board where as I say academia, NHS, industry, and the charities come together to decide on the priorities for the coming years.   Natalie: Fantastic. And Andrea, I suppose in the US it might be slightly different culturally from the UK, but the role of industry with All of Us, how are you engaging with those pharmaceutical, technology bodies, and partners as well?     Andrea: Absolutely, and maybe this goes back a bit to your first question. We at All of Us love learning from UK Biobank and have really seen them forge a lot of wonderful partnerships that have enriched and developed their dataset. We at All of Us have started with academia and working through partnership opportunities really intramurally at intramural centres that make up parts of the National Institute of Health. We believe that building on those close friends and family relationships we have both in the government and academia get us through our first step to be able to interface with commercial organisations. That really started with taking the first step this year to ensure broad availability of data that can maximise both use of the data available, as well as look forward to our partnership opportunities in the future.   So, commercial organisations as of 2024 have also been able to access the All of Us dataset that is that first step in thinking about what a partnership would be, and we are glad to build on the access that international organisations and academic organisations already have.   Natalie: A lot to look forward to here. We are going to have to wrap up in a moment, so I’d just like to leave you all with a final question before we have to end the podcast. There is huge ambition in all of the research programmes that you are leading and involved in, but what are you most excited about coming down the line in the next few years? What do you think is going to be feasible? What really gets you excited about the work that you are doing and where you see the potential benefits really landing in the next few years? Andrea, would you like to start?   Andrea: Thanks. There is a lot we are really excited about. I haven’t had a chance yet to mention our paediatric cohort, and that in addition to expanding access for international research, in 2024 we were able to enrol our first paediatric participants. That really sets up the potential to observe participants across the lifespan. That is a huge advance for All of Us and we are excited about the paediatric work going forward.    Natalie: I love that, how do you come into the future with us? That is fantastic. Naomi.   Naomi: Yeah, if I had to choose one would be the possibility of being able to measure circulating proteins on all half a million participants. We have done this on about 55,000 participants, and just that subset alone is already generating fascinating insights for early biomarkers for disease through protein profiles and risk prediction of disease. I think having that on all half a million coupled with their genomics data and health outcomes, will bring a sea change in how we diagnose disease earlier. So, I think that is a really exciting avenue for us to go into over the next couple of years.   Natalie: Really enriching. That data sounds like a very exciting set of possibilities. Raghib.   Raghib: Thank you. There are so many opportunities here, but I will just maybe mention 3. So, the first, in terms of being able to combine the genetic data that we are collecting and all the other information about risk factors, and particularly the fact that we have this on a lot of young people, will enable us to identify people at high risk of diseases in the presymptomatic phase and then to be able to offer them both feedback about their risk of disease but also interventions that can change their natural incidences. That has never really been possible before. That is extremely important for all diseases for people, but also it is very important for our healthcare system.   So, those of you listening in the UK, I know the NHS is under a huge amount of pressure, and the current model of healthcare which has been in place really since the inception of the NHS, is to treat late-stage disease when people have already developed symptoms and signs. You know, it wasn’t really possible to identify people earlier, but it is now, and Our Future Health will provide the evidence base to show that prevention really is better than cure, and to show that these approaches both lead to better clinical outcomes, but also are cost effective and a good use of resources. Of course, the new government is very much committed to this as well, you know moving from acute care to prevention, from hospitals to community, and from analogue to digital.     Finally, because our cohort has now become so large and does cover every part of the UK, and this wasn’t something I necessarily thought about when we started Our Future Health, we are able to have unique insights into the health of the population across every age group, across every ethnic group, across every geographical area, and by deprivation, and to understand not just observationally in terms of risk factors, but also the impact of interventions on those different populations.   We can look at that, as I said at an individual level on millions of people to gain intelligence about what is going on in terms of public health, but also to see what will hopefully improve their health in the future. So, there are really, you know I have described transformational opportunities to improve health through both biomedical research and populational health insights now through the resource, and I look forward to working with colleagues across the UK and globally to deliver them.   Natalie: We will wrap up there. Thank you so much to our guests, Dr Raghib Ali, Professor Naomi Allen, and Dr Andrea Ramírez for joining me today as we discussed how collaboration, scale, ongoing engagement, can really unlock the potential of large-scale health datasets to drive brilliant new research and ultimately improve the lives of patients and the population.   If you would like to hear more like this, please subscribe to Behind the Genes on your favourite podcast app. Thank you for listening. I have been your host, Natalie Banner. This podcast was edited by Bill Griffin at Ventoux Digital and produced by Naimah Callachand.

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  37:53
• John Pullinger: What is the diagnostic odyssey?

  In this explainer episode, we’ve asked John Pullinger, Senior Bio Sample Operations Manager at Genomics England, to explain what it means to go on a diagnostic odyssey. You can also find a series of short videos explaining some of the common terms you might encounter about genomics on our YouTube channel. If you’ve got any questions, or have any other topics you’d like us to explain, feel free to contact us on [email protected]. The episodes mentioned in the conversation are linked below. Hope for those with no primary findings The impact of a genetic diagnosis on mental health You can download the transcript or read it below. Florence: What does it mean to go on a diagnostic odyssey? I'm joined by John Pullinger, Senior Bio Sample Operations Manager for Genomics England to find out more. So, John, first of all, can you explain what we mean by diagnostic odyssey?   John: Yes, of course. The diagnostic odyssey is a term used to describe the journey that many people with rare conditions and their families undertake to receive an accurate diagnosis, a journey that takes on average over five and a half years.  The rarity of the condition means that there are few, if any, other people affected by it, for doctors to draw their experience from. Some individuals might never receive a diagnosis.  My job involves making sure that samples sent through the Genomics England processes can travel smoothly from the NHS hospitals to be sequenced and the results be reported back to the individual. We try and minimise the amount of time that samples and associated data is in our care.   Florence: And for people listening who might not know, could you explain why it sometimes takes a long time for people to receive a diagnosis?  John: There are estimated to be over 7,000 rare conditions.  This means that healthcare professionals may not be familiar with all of them and so may not recognise them or know how to test for them. In addition to this, some conditions affect multiple parts of the body. For example, skin, the heart, and the lungs. In these cases, there will be a need to visit specialists from multiple departments, and each will be looking specifically at their own area.  This could lead to referral loops where the patient needs to consult multiple healthcare professionals, all of which contributes to the time taken to receive a diagnosis. Since, for the majority of rare conditions, there is an underlying genetic cause. This means that most individuals who get a diagnosis will receive one through genomic testing, whether that be whole genome sequencing as offered here at Genomics England, or more targeted panel testing.  Typically testing will identify a particular gene, which is known to be linked to a specific condition. For certain conditions, it requires a real expert in the condition to even think about testing for it. Sometimes a condition will present in a way that is different to most other people who have it. So they may have symptoms that others don't. This also adds to the buildup of time taken to receive the diagnosis.  Florence: So, you mentioned earlier, John, that the diagnostic odyssey lasts an average of five and a half years. Can you explain what kind of effect this long waiting time has on individuals and their families?  John: Absolutely. One aspect of the diagnostic odyssey that is important to recognise is the physical effect of the as yet undiagnosed condition that's present and affecting the individual and their family on a daily basis. Those with rare conditions may be affected by a range of emotions connected to the ongoing journey that they're on, including feelings of isolation.  Also stress and anxiety. The fear of unknown can have a massive knock-on effect on the mental health of the individual and their family. And it's important to recognise the signs of this so that people can take steps to manage their mental health. Many rare conditions first present themselves in children and young adults, so considering the effects on their day-to-day lives is especially important.  Florence: If you'd like to learn more about how the diagnostic odyssey can affect someone, listen to our previous podcast, “Hope for those with no primary findings”, where Participant Panel member Lisa Beaton, shares her experience of awaiting a diagnosis for her daughter. And so, John, can we talk now about what happens at the end of a diagnostic odyssey?  John: A section of the odyssey that is essential to understand is potentially getting a diagnosis. It may come as a surprise to think that the diagnosis can sometimes be scary as well as a potential relief to the family and also the individual involved. But this reason the work of genetic counsellors is crucial to help those with rare conditions, understand and adapt to the medical, psychological, and potential reproductive implications of their new diagnosis.   Florence: Our previous podcast, “The impact of a genetic diagnosis on mental health” covers this topic in much more detail. So for my final question today, I wanted to ask whether there are ways that families or individuals affected by rare conditions can access support.  John: We would recommend that anyone who might be going through a diagnostic odyssey who wants to know more about their care to contact their doctor or other healthcare professionals in their genetics team, additional resources are also available online, including the NHS website and charities such as Genetic Alliance UK and SWAN UK.  There are also lots of brilliant patient communities and groups that you can get support from.   Florence: That was John Pullinger explaining what it means to go on a diagnostic odyssey. If you'd like to hear more explainer episodes like this, you can find them on our website at www.genomicsengland.co.uk.  Thank you for listening.

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  4:59
• Jillian Hastings Ward, Dr Karen Low and Lindsay Randall: How can parental insights transform care for rare genetic conditions?

  The Genetic Rare Syndromes Observational Cohort (GenROC) study aims to improve our understanding of how rare genetic conditions affect the way children grow, their physical health and their development. Through actively involving parents as experts in their child's condition, the study seeks to gather valuable insights and ensure that family experiences shape future research and care strategies. You can find out more about the study and eligibility criteria via the Bristol University website. In this episode, Jillian Hastings Ward, patient advocate and former Chair of the Participant Panel at Genomics England, is joined by Dr Karen Low, a clinical geneticist leading the study at the University of Bristol, who shares insights into its objectives, the importance of a co-production approach with families, and the vital data being collected in the study to improve support for these children and their families. We'll also hear from Lindsay Randall, a parent who discusses the journey of receiving a rare diagnosis for her child, highlighting the critical need for more comprehensive information and community support. "If you join GenROC, that data will be used to develop a growth chart for your child essentially and their genetic condition, so I’m really excited about it because I feel like that’s a very concrete definite given now for all the families in GenROC, which is just brilliant." You can download the transcript or read it below. Jillian: Welcome to Behind the Genes Lindsay: Historically, there’s been a significant absence of patient voice in rare disease research and development, and knowing that’s changing, I think that’s really empowering for families and to know that professionals and industry are actually listening to our stories and unmet needs and really trying to understand, and that offers much greater impact on the care and treatments of patients in the future. Jillian: My name is Jillian Hastings-Ward. On today’s episode I’m joined by Dr Karen Low, Consultant Clinical Geneticist and Chief Investigator for the General Cohort Study, and Lindsay Randall, Paediatric Practice Development Nurse and founder of Arthur’s Quest, which is a UK registered, non-profit, raising awareness for the ultra-rare condition: SLC6A1, developmental and epileptic encephalopathy. Welcome to you both. Today we’ll be discussing the GenROC study, which is aiming to understand more about the health, development and valuing the experiences of children with neurodevelopmental conditions. If you enjoy today’s episode we’d love your support. Please like, share, and rate us on wherever you listen to your podcasts. Thank you both very much for joining us today, Karen and Lindsay. There’s a lot we want to cover, but first of all it would be great just to put a little bit of context around the Gen-Roc study. Karen, can you tell us a bit about what the study is aiming to do, who is eligible and why do you want them? Karen:  Thank you. And thank you so much for having me today, Jillian. So, the GenROC study, first to just explain to people what ‘GenROC’ stands for. GenROC stands for the Genetic Rare Syndromes Observational Cohort Study. Just to give you some context about the study, I’m a clinical geneticist and most of my clinical work focuses on paediatrics, so I see children in my clinics and the sort of children I see generally are children with rare genetic syndromes. The last five to ten years we’ve got much better at diagnosing children with these rare conditions and that’s because testing has got so much better. We can now do whole genome sequencing and we can do that on the NHS, which is amazing, children can get their tests as part of their clinical care, so it means that a lot more children are being diagnosed with rare conditions, about 2,000 per year in the UK. And the thing about that is, that I see these children in my clinics and I give their families that diagnosis. But the problem is for so many of these ultra-rare conditions, like Lindsay’s family has, we sit there and we say to the family, “Well, your child has got ‘X’ condition,” and we give them some information from maybe one or two publications and linked to a leaflet and a Facebook group. And then we say, “But really we don’t know that much about this condition.” And they say, “But what is it going to mean for them when they are growing up or when they are adults? Will they be able to finish school? Will they be able to work? What is it going to mean?” And I have to shrug my shoulders and go, “I’m not really sure.” And as a geneticist and as a doctor and as a mother really, I just felt that wasn’t good enough, and I found it really frustrating and I know that the families that I work with, that I look after, also find it frustrating and I wanted to do better. And I also found it frustrating that for many genes, researchers would publish two or maybe three publications about these conditions, and then they would move on to the next novel gene, and actually, the journals are a bit like that as well, they like novel things, they like new conditions, they like the next gene. And so, it means that actually data doesn’t always carry on being gathered in these rare conditions, and there are a lot of them. That was another thing, I sort of felt that these conditions were being done a disservice and that we needed to do better, so that’s where the whole idea of the GenROC study came from was my drive and desire to improve things for families and actually to work with families to improve that, and that’s where so this is a very highly co-produced study and right from the outset I’ve involved parents in telling me what they wanted to know and I’ve got a very, very active PPI group, full of parents of children who have got rare genetic conditions, and also I’m really lucky to have a young adult who has a genetic neurodevelopmental disorder herself and they all tell me about essentially what I should do and what I shouldn’t do. They tell me when I’m not doing enough or when I need to do something differently, so it’s very highly co-produced, they’re highly involved all along the way. So, children with a confirmed genetic diagnosis in a list of eligible genes which people can see on our website if they Google GenROC University of Bristol, we’ve got a very easy checker for eligible genes, but they are essentially the most frequently diagnosed genes in rare neurodevelopmental disorders. And if their child is under 16, has a confirmed diagnosis and doesn’t have any other genetic diagnoses then they can go into the GenROC study, that’s essentially the eligibility criteria. Jillian: That’s really interesting. It’s very helpful to hear the background and I think as a parent of a child with a very rare disorder hearing that the clinicians also recognise this gap and the sort of pause that happens once you have your initial diagnosis, is really helpful and really encouraging. Lindsay, can we turn to you next and can you unpack a little bit about what it meant for you to get a rare diagnosis for your child and what point on your family journey was that compared to where you are now? Lindsay: I think to get a rare diagnosis for us was difficult and challenging and I think the first kind of challenge that any family has is actually being well-informed by a paediatrician who is also well-informed, and that’s not always the case. That can affect the way we acknowledge or accept a diagnosis and how we also access support and how we understand what more we can do to make more connections. We did have genetic counselling offered, but I think there are families out there who don’t get genetic counselling offered to help them understand the child’s diagnosis, and then there’s a heavy reliance on the internet, and as you said, there’s a lack of information out of there. A lot of conditions are newly diagnosed or they’re very complicated genes to work with, or as Karen said, they’ve had a couple of papers and people have moved on. And I think that does cause an immense feeling of isolation. We were diagnosed in 2018, our son, our first child, and exactly as Karen said, it was a fairly quick appointment of, “We don’t really know much about this condition at the moment, there’s a couple of papers. We know of 34 children in the world at the moment with your condition. Here’s a Facebook group,” which we did join. And it is overwhelming to be given a diagnosis that’s delivered with such little hope I guess, finding sources of information that’s valid and robust is challenging, not everyone knows how to do that or has a skillset to conduct searches of academic research and I think that clinicians could definitely do better in also signposting the kind of umbrella charities like Unique and Contact and Swan and patient organisations, because I know that would have been definitely helpful for us as a family to be able to have opportunities to connect with others. Jillian: Thank you. Our diagnostic journey has been a bit a similar in that we were diagnosed through the NHS, and that at the time my son was the first person diagnosed with his disorder in the whole of the UK so it was really a big question mark, it was a question of our geneticist saying, “Here’s the three PDF articles that we know exist in the world about this condition. Can you read them and tell us whether you think that sounds like him in order for us to be confirming our diagnosis?” I very much hear what you’re saying there about feeling lost in the wilderness. And we too joined a Facebook group quite shortly after we got our diagnosis, and at the time my son was among the older ones or certainly as time has gone by he has been among the older children, so it can be really hard to know what might happen next. I think that now as Karen was saying we’re getting much better at diagnosing people thanks to all the extra testing that’s happening, that happens much earlier in life than it has done in the past, but I think then it still leaves a gap in parents’ understanding because you don’t necessarily know what the next ten years might look like for example. And so, I think making connections with people who are in that age bracket can be really important, but it’s very hard to do. So Lindsay, I’m conscious that your professional training as a nurse must have stood you in quite good stead when you were faced with a barrage of medical literature shortly after your diagnosis, but I think one thing that every parent shares is the desire to do the best for their child and especially in this world of rare disorders. There’s a huge amount of energy that comes through the community I think, faced with the need to try and self-start and build these networks and connections for themselves. Is that something that you’ve seen in your community as your experience? Lindsay: Yes, definitely. I think we’re a growing community and over the years of course more and more children and young adults have been diagnosed with a few older adults coming through. It is very much a global networking effort and parent/patient organisations have been set up in many countries now by parents of children with children with SLC6A1. I definitely think that drive to become an expert in your child’s condition is a long journey and one of continual learning and actually a lot of families simply don’t have a capacity to take that on, I think often the medical and scientific jargon is difficult to understand and that makes it challenging to access. And as you said, as a paediatric nurse, I at least have some existing skills to understand healthcare to read the research and speak with medical and scientific professionals with some confidence, but in some ways, that has increased the burden I’ve placed on myself to become an expert for my children and other children and families who are not in the same position as me. It does require a lot of dedication and time, and that does have implications on families because it’s time away from our children and from home, and from the remnants of our lives that we desperately try to cling onto, to not lose all sense of ourselves. It’s not often spoken about but I do see the strain it places on the families, as well where there’s a lot of separation and divorce sadly in the rare disease communities, and often that’s as a result of one parent’s drive to be the expert, which seems to cause one parent to fulfil more burden of care and that fosters some level of resentment or sense of loneliness towards the other one. Jillian: There are some scary statistics out there around familial breakdown in this context, and it is something which there are so many factors at play, but it definitely seems to be quite widely recognised and definitely a problem. In terms of the time that people have to spend on liaisons with the research community and the clinical community, that could bring us quite nicely back into a question for you, Karen, about what kind of information the GenROC study is looking to collect from families, can you tell us a bit more about that, please? Karen: Yes, absolutely. As I said before, I’ve been very conscious of the sort of lives that our families are living, and listening to Lindsay, her story is very reminiscent of so many others and yours, Jillian. So I know families have about a gazillion hospital appointments, their children are often also very, very ill intermittently or a lot of the time, then they’ve got school stuff to deal with or they’ve got EHC plans to try and fight for. It’s more than a fulltime job in itself just being a parent of a child with a rare disease and it’s hard work, so me asking them to do anything else is asking a lot. Luckily, I find, with the families I work with, who are universally wonderful I should add, that they are actually just really enthusiastic anyway about research for their child’s condition, and that’s because there isn’t enough information out there, so it’s relevant and important to them. But because they have no time at all, and any time they do give is their own personal time when they could be finally putting their feet up and watching something on TV, I have to make it as low effort as possible. The questionnaire is all online, using a user-friendly and interface as we’ve been able to develop. It’s very user-friendly, it takes 10-15 minutes to complete; they can come and go from the questionnaire as well. We only ask for one time point at the beginning, which is all the sort of stuff that most parents will be able to tell you off the top of their head as well, so they don’t have to go looking for loads of information, apart from a height and a weight. Then later down the line we’re going to ask for a second questionnaire, it’s in the process of being finalised and again that will be the same amount of time, very easy to do, online, at their convenience. It was co-produced with the PPI group, they’ve tested it for me, I’ve had really good feedback and I’ve asked parents who are in the study as well for feedback. Everyone tells me it’s not too difficult or burdensome for them to do. The secondary questionnaire has been very much informed by conversations with the parents that I had as part of a nest of qualitative interview study in GenROC, and that has driven that secondary questionnaire quite differently to what I thought it might be when we first set up the GenROC study. At the beginning I thought it might just be: have things changed for your child? Can you give us a bit more clinical data? But actually I realised that probably I will still gather that information, but they probably won’t have changed that much within the timespan in the study because it will only be a year or two after they completed the first questionnaire, and actually I realised that it would be much more useful to look at the impact of the genetic diagnosis, look at how they’re accessing services within the NHS, what sorts of services they are accessing, Impact on the family and also looking at priorities for families. So families have talked to me about what their priorities are in rare disease, both in service provision but also in research, and I really am a very strong believer that we need to be given the limited funding, we need to be doing the research that matters the most to the families, not to the researchers. What do families actually want us to look into? Actually, do they want us to be looking into behaviour and what strategies work best for example, rather than something else very medical – what matters the most? And so that’s going to be a specific question in that secondary questionnaire, really trying to identify what matters to families the most and then how that can be translated into clinical research in the future. So I’m really interested to see what’s going to come out of that. Lindsay: I think that sounds brilliant, Karen because I think historically there’s been a significant kind of absence of patient voice in rare disease research and development, and knowing that that’s changing, I think that’s really empowering for families and to know that professionals and industry are actually listening to our stories and unmet needs, and really trying to understand, and that offers a much greater impact on the care and treatments for patients in the future and certainly it makes endpoints more relevant to families as well. Jillian: What kind of outputs are you going to be looking at? Karen: The height and weight, the reason I’m asking for that is really because we are trying to work on growth charts for children and that’s because growth charts for children with rare conditions don’t exist by enlarge, there are a very, very tiny number of rare syndromes or conditions that have their own growth chart. The problem is that most children with these sort of rare conditions that we’re talking about are either quite small or quite big, and the problem is that the paediatricians look at their growth and they go, “Oh well, you’re much bigger or much smaller than other children your own age, what shall we do about that?” and particularly the little tiny ones it causes lots and lots of concern, so quite often these sort of growth parameters mean that the paediatricians do lots and lots of tests or put feeding tubes down, or add lots of calories, so it can be quite invasive and interventional actually that sort of growth parameter. But actually, sometimes that’s because of the genetic condition and no matter how much feeding you do it’s not going to change anything. The difficulty is we don’t know that for certain, and actually we need good growth charts where paediatricians can make that call, and conversely sometimes a child actually does need investigating and the paediatrician puts it all down to their genetic condition, and that’s why we need these growth charts. So GenROC is aiming to gather growth data from all these children and then we’re going to work closely with Decipher, which is a website that was developed through the DDD study, which already holds lots of data from that study, so we’re building on the power of that study and we’re going to be generating growth charts for all of these genes. We’ve developed a new method for producing growth charts for rare conditions where you’ve got small numbers of patients – that was never possible before, so we’ve already proven now for four conditions we can, so the next stage is using all the GenROC data, putting it into Decipher and coding it in. So, if you join GenROC, that data will be used to develop a growth chart for your child essentially and their genetic condition, so I’m really excited about it because I feel like that’s a very concrete definite given now for all the families in GenROC, which is just brilliant. Jillian: And is that something which will be shared with the families individually? Karen: Really great question. I hadn’t planned on sharing the growth charts individually with the families, but that’s something I can also go back to my PPI group and discuss with them about whether that’s something people would want, and also I have a newsletter which goes out every three months to the families, so I can certainly ask that question actually directly. It’s going to be widely available, the growth charts, we’re going to make sure that they’re accessible to paediatricians and clinicians etc. but in terms of output to the study, definitely the growth charts, we’re also hoping to have other clinically useful outcomes depending on the different genes that come into the study. We essentially have a cohort of children with rare conditions, everyone puts everything down to a specific genetic condition but we know that there must be other factors at play that influence how children do. And this is a really unique thing we’re trying to do with GenROC actually, looking at aside from that genetic variant, that alteration, what other factors are influencing how children are doing? Because some of those might be modifiable, you know, or some of them there could be things that could be put in place to help improve outcomes. So I’m quite excited about that as well, because that’s quite new and novel and not really been thought about in this context before, so that will be an output. And the other output is something that I’m working on with Unique, which is the rare disease charity who has worked with us on GenROC from the start, and they are involved in our PPI as well and that is going to be looking at a template, calling it a report at the moment, it’s in very early days, but something that parents will be able to hold, it’s going to have lots of drop-down boxes that can be tailored and modified for individual patients and children, which will be a bit of a guide that they can give to clinicians, professionals, education, telling them about their condition but also telling them on an individualised basis about what needs to be looked for in the future. Because parents tell me they are fed up of having to tell everybody about their child’s condition constantly, all the time, over and over again. So what the point of this output would be is to try and ease that burden a little bit. This is very early stages but we’re going to involved parents all along the way. Jillian: And is that something which builds on the hospital passport idea that we’ve seen emerging around the world over the last few years where parents can start off telling their child’s story on their own behalf? Karen: So, it’s come from my own lived personal experience of being a mother of a child with autism and I haven’t really spoken about that publicly before, so it’s something I’m saying for the first time. I have a child who has autism and I have had to navigate things like a DLA application form. Jillian: That’s Disability Living Allowance. Karen: Yes, exactly, which is a horrendous form, it’s the most horrible form to complete, probably apart from an EHCP plan form but it’s a horrible form to complete, it’s quite upsetting as a parent and it’s also got millions of boxes that you have to fill in. But one of the things that really, really helped me when I was completing that was a charity who had come up with lots of drop-downs that you could select from that might be applicable to your child to help you complete this form. And so it made me really think, “Well, could we do something similar for our children with genetic conditions but come up with lots of dropdown options that might apply to their child in all sorts of different areas?” And that was the inspiration, it was that, and doing the qualitative study that I’ve already done with parents of children in GenROC who were telling me about how fed up they were of having to constantly tell everybody about their child’s condition over and over again. Jillian: Yes, that’s probably very helpful to empower families to use standard terminology across the different families because my own son has epilepsy as part of his condition but actually trying to describe what his seizures look like I’m not sure I’m using the right words to fit the right boxes to fit them into the right categories with the neurologist. So that level of standardisation is something that we definitely need embedded into the system in order for more people to be able to use this data more effectively, so that sounds very helpful. Lindsay, coming back to you, what are you hoping to get out of this study, or what are you hoping this study will do on your behalf for the world? What motivated you to take part? Lindsay: I think I would like to see all of the aims of the study realised and for the study data to be used to inform the development of standards of care for a wide range of conditions, those included in the study. I think it would be great if that information, as Karen said, is available not only to the participants but also to children diagnosed with those conditions in the future and also it’s an opportunity to consider themes that are identified across the disease groups as that can also help inform future research and look at investigations into the mechanisms of disease and where actually therapeutics could treat maybe more than one disease at a time and increase potential for basket trials and early access programmes – thank you to Dr Karen Low and her team for conducting the project because it included a comprehensive list of rare diseases, it really does give parents and patients an opportunity to have a voice and to contribute, which is empowering, and it gives them a little bit of autonomy as well over their direction that science and research goes to. Jillian: Fantastic, thank you. Karen, can you tell us a little bit about the timeframe for the study? I realise that we haven’t really touched on that so far. Karen: Yes absolutely, I’m aiming to recruit 500 children as a total. We’re open at 22 sites across the UK. Coinciding with this podcast actually we’ve opened a second door for recruitment, so the way we’ve recruited so far has been through clinical genetic sites, which is the way we’ve done these sorts of studies in the past, like the DDD study. The problem is that that relies on clinicians identifying eligible patients and clinicians are very, very busy in the NHS. I have worked closely with Unique who have been doing a lot of publicity and the genetic alliance have done publicity as well for the study, so that’s been one way of identifying eligible participants. And also just parent power through social media has been amazing. The second way we’re going to recruit, and this is going to happen very soon, is through Genomics England. So, we are going to trial a completely novel way of recruiting to research through Genomics England and that is for Genomics England to identify eligible participants for GenROC and this would have been through the 100,000 genome study and then they’re going to send them invite letters, inviting them to take part. So that’s the next phase of recruitment, I think if we have more than 500 then that will be great too, we’ll be able to include those comers too, so that’s not a problem. But we don’t know whether this will work or not in terms of a way of recruiting to research, this is completely new for Genomics England and I’m a bit of a guinea pig if you like through the GenROC study, but I was quite willing to be that guinea pig because I thought it might increase access. So there will be some parents who have not been told about GenROC who have not heard about it, and who would love to take part, so I feel like this is the way of really widening that net as wide as possible. Jillian: I think that is a challenge isn’t it, especially in rare disease – there’s no point doing a public broadcast about an initiative because you’re going to hit so few of the people that you’re interested in, so actually how you access the community is the first challenge and I’m really pleased that Genomics England will be able to help you there because I think that is a very useful route through. I think it will probably be quite reassuring to quite a lot of families who were on the 100,000 Genomes Project who have got a diagnosis of one of the conditions that you’re interested in, and are now perhaps subsequently in the fallow period after you have a diagnosis, wondering what happens next, so I can imagine it might be quite good news for some of them at least that they are now being invited to do something further. And the reason that you’re building forward and you don’t want people who are currently in the deciphering developmental disorders study is because you’re already using their data through another source, is that correct? Karen: Exactly. So absolutely, I don’t want anyone to feel that I don’t want them, that’s really not the case. I do want them but we have their data already from Decipher, so we’re building on the DDD data already, so they’re already contributing which is just the beauty of it, because that’s what we should be doing in rare disease, we should be building on previous research because you know, you don’t want to be trying to reinvent the wheel. Jillian: Agreed. So if someone is listening to this and has a child with a rare developmental disorder and they are interested in finding out more, what are the steps they need to take? Karen: If they Google Bristol University, GenROC, they’ll come straight to the webpage and everything is on there. There’s a link that they can sign up, the patient information leaflet’s there, the eligible gene list is there, all the information they need, including our email address. Jillian: And is there an upper age limit for recruitment? Karen: Yes, children have to be under 16 and that’s because once they get to 16 many of these conditions have associated learning difficulties, and it’s just very much more complex to try and recruit young adults, young people, with learning difficulties and given it was a cohort study we felt it was going to be too difficult at the moment. Saying that, I have a huge interest actually in how these conditions present in adulthood, and I’m actually conducting a much smaller study at the moment in KBG syndrome, looking at adults, and so I hope that my future research career will allow me both to follow-up the children in GenROC, so that would be my vision but also to be able to take this forward for other adults with rare conditions, that’s my aim and goal in the medium to long-term, so watch this space for that. Jillian: That sounds very exciting, thank you. Lindsay: I think I would like to say to Karen that I really like the sound of the idea of following patients up into young adulthood and adulthood, as you said, that is definitely a kind of an unknown area in lots of the rare diseases, especially in our condition, SLC6A1, it was mutation and the disease was only really discovered in 2015, so it is fairly new and we have very, very few young people and adults coming through and being diagnosed and connecting with the rest of the community. So, being able to understand the trajectory of conditions better and especially conditions where actually the presentation it’s quite a spectrum, and so the long-term outcomes for people with SLC6A1 can look quite different, so it’s good to collate more information about that I think. Karen: I think it’s really important, so that’s definitely where I’m looking to for the future with GenROC and more widely, I think it’s just something I’m really interested in and has huge relevance for parents and families. Jillian: Well, I think we need to wrap up there but thank you both very much Dr Karen Low and Lindsay Randall for joining me today as we’ve been discussing the GenROC study, and how the study aims to improve understanding of how rare genetic syndromes affect the way children grow, their physical health, their development, but also how the patient and parent communities can work more closely with researchers to end up delivering something which is of a huge benefit to everybody. If you would like to hear more about this, please subscribe to ‘Behind the Genes’ on your favourite podcast app. Thank you for listening. I’ve been your host, Jillian Hastings Ward. This podcast was edited by Bill Griffin at Ventoux Digital and produced by Naimah Callachand.

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