Chasing Consciousness

• PLANT INTELLIGENCE, MEMORY & COMMUNICATION - Monica Gagliano PHD #67

  How do plants communicate using sound? How do they remember previous stimuli that have proven not to be threat, when at first they seemed like one? Where is the memory encoded considering they have no brain? What are the implications for biology of plant memory? In this episode we cover the ground breaking topics in plant cognition studies of: plant intelligence, behaviour, memory and communication. The type of experiments presented here have never really been done before, because there has always been an assumption in plant science that the cellular cognition that all living cells have, relies solely on light, touch or chemical interactions; so it doesn’t really permit for plant behaviour, memory and consciousness. So with my guest today, the first scientist to bypass the assumptions and try these tests, we’re going to discuss her experiments with plants; that clearly show not only basic memory and the corresponding updated behaviour based on that memory, but even pavlovian memory, i.e. associative memory that requires arbitrary stimuli to take on meaning to the plant. Obviously all of this has massive implications for distributed memory and memory beyond brains. We’re also going to get into plant medicine and other indigenous approaches to connecting with plant consciousness; and what plant communication and biophilia in general might do for our relationship to the natural world as we face imminent biosphere collapse. My guest is of course, the research associate professor of Evolutionary Ecology at several universities in Australia, Monica Gagliano. She’s published over 60 scientific papers, across the fields of Ecology, Plant Cognition, Plant Communications and Marine Ecology. She is also the author of the books “The Language of Plants: Science, Philosophy and Literature”,  and the highly celebrated,“Thus Spoke the Plant, A remarkable Journey of Groundbreaking Scientific Discoveries and Personal Encounters”. What we discuss: 00:00  Intro 05:00 The consensus on Plant intelligence & communication. 09:20 The difference between reacting and responding in cognition. 10:00 Bio-acoustic communication between plants. 21:07 Possible methods for plants to percieve sound. 22:00 Response to gravity may be similar. 23:30 Her plant memory experiment with Mimosa. 27:15 ‘Habituation’ learning: screening out non-useful stimuli. 32:15 The connection between hardship and accelerated adaptive learning. 37:50 Her ‘Pavlovian’ associative memory experiment with peas. 46:10 The Implications of plant memory for modern biology.  49:25 Where is memory stored without a nervous system? 52:30 Monica’s ethical crisis in animal studies. 01:00:00 ‘Pavlovian’ associative memory experiment with peas. 01:01:30 ‘Dieta’, amazonian plant communication practice. 01:05:00 Shamanic interface with plant wisdom, particularly for healing. 01:08:00 Reductionist materialist pushback is representative of the colonial history of abuse of nature. 01:11:00 Indigenous science and a new book in the making. References: Monica Gagliano, “Thus Spoke the Plant, A remarkable Journey of Groundbreaking Scientific Discoveries and Personal Encounters”. Gagliano, Manusco & Robert, “Towards Understanding Plant Bioacoustics” paper

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  1:20:39
• MORPHIC RESONANCE, NATURE'S MEMORY & EXTENDED MIND - Rupert Sheldrake PHD #66

  Where is nature’s memory of its evolution encoded? Is there evidence for extended mind occurring beyond individual brains? How possible is it that the sun is conscious? In this episode we’re going to get up to date on Rupert Sheldrake’s extraordinary theory of Morphic resonance: so Morphic fields, the unfolding of nature’s ‘habits’ and the ‘memory of nature’. We’ll examine the possibility of levels of consciousness larger than our own brains - scaling up in a hierarchy from cellular consciousness right up to planetary and perhaps even stellar consciousness! We’re also going to get into examples of consciousness beyond the brain like ‘the sensation of being stared at’ (clearly a useful skill to evolve) and other phenomena Rupert has reported in his experiments.  Rupert Sheldrake is a Cambridge PHD developmental Biologist whose published over 100 papers on topics as wide as Cellular Biology, telepathy, Pets who know when their owners are coming home, and after-death communications. He is also the author of many books like “A new science of life”, “Science set free”, and “Ways of going Beyond”, among many others. What were discuss: 00:00 Intro. 06:10 Morphic resonance explained. 08:15 Polar Auxin - death in the midst of life. 09:15 Genes make proteins, morphogenetic fields determine form. 11:30 Nature’s “memory” spread across time. 13:25 Something that has happened before is more likely to happen again. 14:15 Collective memory, like Jung’s collective unconscious. 17:15 His scientific education engrained materialism and atheism in him.. 18:15 Asian philosophy, psychedelics, Neo-platonism and Christianity. 20:30 Questioning of scientific dogma came before his faith. 22:00 Thomas Kuhn’s paradigm change, an analogy for him breaking with science. 23:50 Rupert’s work denounced as ‘Heresy’ by the editor of Nature in 1981.  26:30 Measuring Morphic fields in experiments. 28:30 IQ tests have got easier for people over time, The Flynn Effect 30:00 Video games have to make new versions harder each time.  32:10 Is subtle energy field research beyond science? 37:00 Bioelectric morphogenetic fields & Michael Levin.  41:20 Bioelectric fields are the interface not the explanation. 42:30 Where are morphic fields recorded in nature? 44:50 Platonism doesn’t explain evolution and change over time. 47:00 Different levels of collective consciousness, up to planetary, stellar and even cosmic consciousness. 56:40 The feeling of being stared at: examples of extended mind. 01:02:55 Mystical experience - being part of a greater consciousness. 01:09:40 Are spiritual & scientific insight compatible? References: Rupert Sheldrake, “A New Science of life”. Michael Levin - Bio-electric morphogenetic fields CC interview The Sheldrake.org Staring App. Polar Auxin  QUOTE: “Morphic resonance leaps across time and space, It’s not stored anywhere it’s a direct connection with the past.”

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  1:17:47
• POST-REDUCTIONIST SCIENCE - Marcelo Gleiser PHD #54

  Why is our subjective experiences and cultural context inseparable from our scientific theories and attempts to be objective? Why is it that the more we know, the more we know we don’t know? What does reductionist materialism miss out from the scientific picture and what does a post-reductionist science look like? How can understanding some of materialism’s incompleteness help us face humanity's greatest problems? In this episode we have the blind spots of enlightenment science to assess; we’re going to be investigating the common belief that science can provide a universal, objective, God-like perspective of the truth of things, independent from our human experience. We’re also going to look at the implications of the consensus in science that all phenomena can be reduced to solely material causes, and what that may be missing out. To assess this we’re going to be looking at data from cosmology, biology, cognitive science and quantum physics and thinking about the assumptions that are so baked in to our western scientific approaches, that we may have forgotten they’re assumptions at all.  In order to do this we’re going to be speaking to Brazilian professor of theoretical physics at Dartmouth College, Marcelo Gleiser. Marcelo works on a range of topics from Cosmology and information theory, to the history and philosophy of science, and how science and culture interact. He’s also the author of many popular science books including most recently, “the Dawn of Mindful Universe: A manifesto for humanities future” and his new 2024 book which we’ll be focusing on today, “The Blind Spot: Why Science Cannot Ignore Human Experience”, Co-authored with astronomer Adam Frank and philosopher Evan Thompson, who will be not he show in the next series. Gleiser’s also the first South American recipient of the prestigious Templeton Science prize for his standpoint that science, philosophy and spirituality are complementary expressions of humanities deep need to explore the unknown. I have wanted to speak to Marcelo about the limits of science and a post-reductionist approach to science since he was recommended by my previous guest psychiatrist and brain-hemisphere researcher Dr. Iain McGilchrist in the series one episode “Navigating beyond Materialism”, and I’m extremely glad I followed him up on it. What we discuss: 00:00 Intro 06:14 Asymmetry is also beautiful.  11:40 The more you know, the more you know you don’t know. 18:00 ‘Interbeing’ - buddhism and the philosophy of science. 22:00 Bacteria are our ancestors. 23:00 Sacred ancestral knowledge - belonging & gratitude for nature. 30:00 Extremely unlikely chemical steps and extinction events required for life to develop. 35:00 The chances of intelligent technological life on other planets. 37:00 Fine-tuned for life VS the anthropic principle. 50:30 Post-enlightenment sacredness. 52:00 The rise of reductionism.  01:03:30 Newton was troubled by his theory. 01:08:37 Strongly and weakly emergent phenomena. 01:12:00 Downward or upward causation? Dualism or monism? 01:17:50 Scientific concepts are stories, and stories are simplifications too. 01:21:20 “The Blind Spot: Why science cannot ignore human experience”. 01:26:31 “Sureptitious substitution” of concepts for experiences. 01:28:45 Is consciousness fundamental? 01:42:45 Blindspots in the hard sciences - jumps that are too big. 01:53:30 Marcelo’’s new “The Island of Knowledge’ centre in Tuscany. Quote: “Gravity must be caused by an agent, acting constantly according to certain laws; but whether this agent be material or immaterial, I have left to the consideration of my readers.” — Sir Isaac Newton (Third letter to Bentley, 25 Feb 1693) References: Marcelo Gleiser, “The Blind Spot: How science must take include human experience”. Marcelo Glesier, “The Dawn of a Mindful Universe” Aristarchus of Samos - The greek Copernicus ‘The Island of Knowledge’ Centre in Tuscany, Italy

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  2:10:20
• THE YOUTH MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS & SOLUTIONS - Louis Weinstock #64

  Why are we seeing such a rise in youth mental health diagnosis? How do we relativise this against the rise in mental health awareness? What’s the best approach for parents seeking solutions? How can social-connection and loneliness completely change trauma integration? What role does the recent explosion of persuasive technologies in young peoples lives play in the changing situation? In this episode we have the important topic of Youth Mental Health to get ourselves up to date on. Today we’re going to try and unravel these often divisary issues in a balanced way; we’re going to be discussing the importance of threat and safety to a child’s state of mind as they develop; the power of the parent or carer’s own unresolved issues to transmit to young people, creating symptoms in the child; the importance of going to the root of the problem rather than just treating symptoms; the role of escapism as an emotional avoidance strategy, and how digital platforms and device providers have taken advantage of that tendency, and the parenting strategies to guide this; and we’re going to discuss the role of shame in us avoiding facing these issues. Fortunately, considering the nuanced and potentially triggering topic of the mental well being of the children we parent and teach, today’s guest has just released the paper back version of his new book on exactly this topic, “How the world is making our children mad and what to do about it”. As a hugely experienced child psychotherapist and founder of the charity “Apart of Me” that supports children to transform their loss into compassion, he is perfectly placed to give us un update on this, and is filled with excellent stories and advice to help us face it. He is of course Louis Weinstock, a transpersonal psychotherapist and mindfulness specialist, who has worked with a wide range of sufferers from the criminal justice system, to drug addicts, to homeless people, to troubled teens and their parents. What we discuss: 00:00 Intro. 09:00 Our mental life is inseparable from our environment. 11:45 ‘Fetal programming’ is applied in utero by the mother’s environment. 14:10 Improvements in kid’s mental health, simply from parents doing the work. 18:45 Children having behaviour issues at the same age as their parent’s had trauma. 21:20 The evolutionary history of shame. 25:40 The difference between shame and guilt. 28:00 Rupture & repair: conflict in relationships is bearable and repairable. 29:25 Is psychotherapy worth it for kids, considering the stigma? 34:15 Mental health awareness can exaggerate our negative view of ourselves. 38:30 Massive jump in recent stats on youth mental health. 41:00 ‘Roots’ of mental health issues and ‘fruits’ we can learn from them. 45:20 Suffering and transformation: post-traumatic growth. 49:50 Escaping into virtual realities: Dissociation. 53:00 The ‘freeze’ response - shutting the body down. 01:00:40 Resilience explained - fragile vs anti fragile. 01:04:00 The connection between loneliness and trauma. 01:05:25 Youth mental health and device/internet addiction. 01:07:25 ‘Variable reward’ strategy taken from gambling slot machines. 01:12:30 Clear differences in kid’s moods and sleep after too long on devices. 01:14:20 Parenting solutions to regulating screen time peacefully. 01:16:40 No devices in the bedroom, particularly in the evenings before bed. 01:20:30 Awareness: they’re capable of reflecting on their behaviour. 01:24:20 Unsupervised play outside and in nature. 01:25:40 The world is safer rather than less safe than in the past. References: Louis Weinstock, “How the world is driving our kids mad” https://louisweinstock.com/ Apart of Me mental health charity (please donate) Jonathan Haidt - “The Anxious Generation” Let Grow movement for childhood independence

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  1:29:06
• METACOGNITION: THE SCIENCE OF SELF-AWARENESS - Stephen Fleming PHD #63

  How and why did human’s develop self-awareness of what we know and don’t know? How does it develop in relation to how we evaluate what other people know? What are the risks of cognitive bias tainting our ability to learn and self correct? In this episode, we have the interesting question of our own self-awareness, or Meta-cognition, to understand. For centuries philosophers have called on us to “know thyself”, but only now with the tools of modern neuroscience have we been able to scientifically quantify the way we consciously track our behaviour, performance, thoughts and knowledge. So today we’ll be getting into why this is important for learning and error correction; we’re going to talk about meta-cognition’s use for “mind reading” I.e. tracking our confidence in others in their own knowledge, both friends and foes, fundamental for the evolution of our collaborative groups; the implications of cognitive bias blind spots in metacognition for updating our collective beliefs over time; also whether metacognition is proportionally correlated to intelligence; and how technology and AI has and will influence the future of our self-awareness, and whether it’s convenient to try programming AI to be metacognitive too, or if that would invite disaster. For these matters there can be no better guest than University College London Cognitive neuroscience Professor, Stephen Fleming. He’s the author of the 2021 book “Know Thyself, the science of self awareness”, and founder of the Meta Cognition Group at UCL, and the group leader of the Max Plank, UCL Centre for Computational Neuroscience. What we discuss: 00:00 Intro 05:15 Striking aspects of experience get you thinking. 08:00 ‘Know thyself’ - a moral, social and spiritual responsibility 10:00 Lao Tsu - to think you know when you do not is a disease. 11:00 Tracking the quality of our performance, error correction and learning. 14:00 Cognitive offloading - compensating for our limitations. 14:30 Metacognition and intelligence are similar but different. 17:40 Inside-out modelling of the world influences your cognition. 20:45 The brain has confidence in colour - Subjective inflation in the periphery. 22:00 UCL metacognition lab experiments - confidence in performance. 25:20 Metacogntiive efficiency - skill in evaluating your success. 26:20 MRI scans of the processes of self-aware brain activity. 28:50 Sam Harris - Self-awareness in the brain vs Ego-self. 33:20 Mind reading/Theory of mind: Evaluation of others VS evaluation of myself. 38:50 Children’s learning 43:40 Chris Frith - metacognition for collaboration: Balancing our own VS group evaluations. 44:30 Supremacy of collective knowledge 46:45 Why did self-awareness evolve? 51:30 The fight or flight mental state trumps self-reflective evaluation. 54:00 Stress blunts frontal cortex activity. 54:20 Modern life stress is not the same as the stress we evolved for. 57:20 We need self-reflection in stressful arguments but it’s not available. 58:20 Education: re-presenting your ideas - an antidote to over confidence. 01:04:00 Left Brain Interpreter - lack of self-awareness of our cognitive bias. 01:10:00 Exacerbated confidence judgements in internet/social media information ecosystems. 01:14:40 Awareness of the inside out way we construct our view of the world could be positive for compassion. 01:17:10 Balancing long-term societal self awareness, with traditional short term one. 01:21:00 The influence of Ai and technology on our self awareness. 01:26:30 ‘Offloading’ aids for cognition VS replacements for our cognition? References: Stephen Fleming, “Know thyself - the science of self-awareness” Steve Fleming’s Lab - The Meta Lab, UCL Gilbert Riles, “Concept of Mind” - self awareness in us and others Peter Carruthers - “Knowledge of our own thoughts is just as interpretive as knowledge of the thoughts of others” paper Chris D. Frith - ‘The role of metacognition in human social interactions’ paper

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  1:40:14

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