ABF increases the lending toolkit – Apollo co-head of asset-backed finance Bret Leas
Bret Leas, co-head of asset-backed finance at Apollo Global Management, speaks about this booming segment of private credit with Credit Exchange host Lisa Lee, managing editor at Creditflux and editor-at-large at Debtwire. Leas can see the private credit market exceeding the current growth forecast of $40 trillion, and that will have repercussions. “The financing toolkit has gotten so much broader,” he observes.Leas says both public and private investments can be risky and safe. He cautions that there are excesses in the system. Leverage has been ticking up steadily and documentation, especially in the public markets, has been very weak for some time. “There is a level of diligence that you need to do when lending money,” Leas says.For ABF, Europe probably represents a bigger opportunity than the US, Leas contends. The continent has a very narrow banking system and an insurance system that is underinvested. “You have countries that have been so far behind in their build that the ability to catch up through traditional means is very, very unlikely.”Leas also discusses the war for talent, trading of investment-grade private loans, and the knock-on effects of the spending on artificial intelligence.
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Expect more corporations to default – JPMorgan head of global credit financing Jake Pollack
“The idea that default rates will go up over time is not particularly difficult to get to,” says Jake Pollack, head of global credit financing and North America credit trading at JPMorgan, on the latest Credit Exchange podcast with Lisa Lee. “The markets have been very sanguine, and it won’t be surprising if we see more defaults in the coming months and even years.”Corporate America is doing well, despite some headline-grabbing bankruptcies recently. But Pollack notes that spreads are very tight, which means there’s a lot of capital chasing opportunities. As recent bouts of volatility have demonstrated, it doesn’t take a lot for spreads to widen out.Pollack also tips trading in private credit to increase, especially if the definition of private credit is widened to incorporate private investment grade debt and structured notes. But trading in traditional direct lending loans is less likely to take off.This means that there will be certain areas where that illiquidity premium goes away as the market looks more like its public counterparts. There will be other areas that are not widely held, that can probably keep the spread premium because it’s simply much less tradable, Pollack says.
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There’s tremendous fragility in the system – PGIM co-CIO Greg Peters
“Underneath is a lot of volatility. Companies are struggling. You’re seeing really wide dispersion,” says Greg Peters, co-chief investment officer at PGIM Fixed Income, on the latest episode of Credit Exchange with Lisa Lee. Companies, both public and private, are defaulting at a higher rate than you would expect given the macro backdrop.Investors have been too quick to dismiss the possibility of a return in inflation. Peters pegs the probability of the US economy overheating at 25%, and higher than the probability of a recession. The US has fiscal stimulus coming through, likely a more easy Fed, and together with deregulation and some other factors, there’s the real risk of overheating next year, he says. He adds there’s also a 10% probability of a productivity boost from AI.Markets are also struggling with the near-term effects versus the long-term, Peters notes. The case of France is what happens to a sovereign that’s overindebted, where the political system is called into question. “This is very much a canary in a coal mine,” he says.
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Bigger private credit deals will happen – Antares CEO Tim Lyne
“It’s a huge differentiator” to have dedicated and experienced personnel to deal with struggling borrowers, says Tim Lyne, CEO of private credit specialist Antares Capital, in the latest Credit Exchange podcast with Lisa Lee. Recent entrants, funds raised in the past five years, often do not.On the M&A front, Lyne doesn’t expect to see a great volume of M&A transactions this year, or indeed in the first quarter of next year. That’s because Antares’ volume on the new business side is average: “if it was going to be great, we would be seeing some of those deals come in the shop already,” he says.Private credit could have financed the $20bn of debt for Electronic Arts, but it would have been a stretch. But that will not necessarily be true for much longer, he observes. “If I fast-forward 3-5 years from now, I think $20[bn] will not be challenging.”There are also too many players, Lyne says, which is compressing fees. With more than $85bn in AUM, Antares has scale, and Lyne says the biggest private credit lenders will continue to get bigger. But for the players in the industry that are not of scale, “it’s going to be incredibly challenging for them to continue to grow over the next five years.”
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A slow, global rebalancing away from the US dollar and Treasuries – Amundi CIO of fixed income Grégoire Pesques
“Existing investors are probably too long the dollar. They enjoy a very good ride. Valuations are expensive. It makes sense to take profit,” says Grégoire Pesques, CIO, global fixed income at Europe’s largest asset manager Amundi, in the latest Credit Exchange podcast with Lisa Lee.The US, UK, many Eurozone countries, Japan – all have been spending profusely, causing deficits to be a big issue almost everywhere. Describing the fiscal and macro landscape, Pesques details where Amundi, with €2.2 trillion in AUM, is investing. He is buying UK Gilts because the market hasn’t priced in the possibility that growth may slow, and the Bank of England then cuts interest rates.Germany is prepared to turn on the fiscal spending taps, yet will stay one of the safest countries in terms of debt-to-GDP ratios. “There will be a premium for the government that keeps some sort of orthodoxy and has a very strong balance sheet,” says Pesques. There are also pockets of emerging markets that are great investments right now, he adds.There is a big need for diversification away from the dollar and away from Treasuries. But it will take “ages”, he notes, and the rebalancing will be progressive.“It’s always better for a risk-adjusted return to have more diversification in your portfolio,” says Pesques.
Credit Exchange with Lisa Lee. Explore the latest trends in global credit markets with the biggest movers and shapers on Wall Street and the City, hosted by financial reporting veteran Lisa Lee.
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