Credit Exchange with Lisa Lee

Private credit firms, including Hayfin, are still willing to lend to software companies, says Marc Chowrimootoo, co-head of direct lending at alternative asset manager Hayfin, on the latest episode of the Credit Exchange podcast with Lisa Lee.
“If that call comes in, we absolutely take that call,” says Chowrimootoo, on how he responds to a request from a private equity fund for a software LBO financing. “We absolutely give it the due care and attention.”
But the willingness to partake has moderated, he adds. “Everyone is being much more judicious.”
There are a number of questions you can go through with a private equity buyer who understands what they’re doing, Chowrimootoo says. For example: how can I understand why this is more insulated than others out there? How embedded is this platform with its customers? What’s different about the ownership of data in this particular asset? What’s the protected moat around the end customer, and the usage of this in the technology?
Regarding software exposure more broadly in the private credit market, Chowrimootoo notes that Europe has less exposure compared to their counterparts in the US. In addition, while retail capital is a huge portion of the US market, European private credit funds have less than EUR 10bn in retail vehicles.
On the geopolitical front, Chowrimootoo says Europe has had to deal with many periods of volatility. “It’s way too soon to be making a judgment on where the direction of travel is on credit spreads; where the direction of travel on default levels are; where the direction of travel is on stress of earnings.”

The current period is a “really important rite of passage” for retail access to private credit and direct lending, says Tristram Leach, head of investments Europe at Apollo Global Management, on the latest episode of Credit Exchange with Lisa Lee.
“The five percent number is there for a reason,” says Leach, speaking about recent outflows from semi-liquid private credit funds that have seen a pickup in redemption requests (some firms have given back more than the agreed 5%; some have limited at 5%).
“It’s important to protect remaining investors. It’s a level of liquidity that has been promised. And in general, we think the appropriate way to proceed is to do what you said you’d do.”
Direct lending, he believes, will continue to grow – but it needs to go through a period where there are elevated redemptions in the marlet.
“People want their money back. You have to see the products work as they were designed to work. And the way they’re designed to work is they give five percent. That, broadly speaking, is the appropriate design, and how it should function,” Leach contends.
He adds that we are still in a fairly early period in the development of wealth access to direct lending. Consequently, it’s understandable that results in a “slightly flightier” asset base compared to institutions.
Leach understands the argument that the central composition of the direct lending market does put it more in the crosshairs of this threat.
“The very high software concentration, certainly among some of our peers in private credit, does create some additional risk when you think about AI disruption,” says Leach, who is also the co-head of European credit at Apollo.
Across the firm, Apollo has around 2% software exposure. Even within direct lending, Apollo is “clearly at the bottom end of the range,” Leach says.
Nonetheless, he believes the market was relatively slow to wake up to the potential of AI. “What’s surprising to me is that when Claude Code came out, the market suddenly noticed,” he says. “We’ve been watching the incredible pace and development of large language models for several years now.”
On Europe, the Iran war probably represents more of a cyclical threat to Europe than the US because of the energy price dynamic and geographical proximity, Leach believes. “That is definitely a headwind to growth; it’s a headwind to cyclical industries.
“Especially for companies exposed to growth in Europe, that’s going to be a challenge, because of the inflation impacts to energy prices.”
Nonetheless, that doesn’t materially impact Leach’s expectations for greater infrastructure investment and defence investments on the continent.
“There’s been a huge change in the attitude of European policymakers towards the need to spend money, become more productive, become more competitive. All these things are clearly felt viscerally within Europe because of how fragile the continent’s position seems. I think you’re going to see changes, and I think you’re going to see Europe seek to take advantage of the opportunity,” Leach says.
Leach also shares why, in football, he is wholly committed to Atlético Madrid.

“We’ve never had more undrawn capital,” says Jonathan Dorfman, chief investment officer at Napier Park Global Capital, a $40bn alternative credit manager. Napier Park has been prepping for a repricing of financial assets that predates the Iran war and the software crisis, Dorfman said in the latest episode of Credit Exchange with Lisa Lee.
Have ready cash and take advantage to buy assets that are going to come up for sale very soon, Dorfman advises. He says credit spreads should widen further: “We are going to see more and more problems occur, and more and more bad headlines.”
While Dorfman believes people will look back and say the headlines over private credit’s software issues were overblown, it’s appropriate there’s been a dramatic repricing, because of the enormous uncertainty caused by AI. The more sophisticated software companies are not going to sit still, and they will figure out how AI benefits them, and come out stronger. But some won’t.
On risk from the Iran war, Dorfman says history shows that markets usually have a short-term, very violent downward move with some type of capitulation to major geopolitical developments – but then they recover. Sustained high oil prices need to last at least a few months to meaningfully affect the real economy, and therefore financial markets. Right now, it’s too early to tell if this is a buy-the-dip moment. But it’s probably a fine strategy, he reckons.
A pioneer of the credit default swap, Dorfman says the CDX index is saying there’s a lack of fear about a recession and/or a meaningful economic slowdown. Risk premiums are higher, but they’re not high in an absolute sense that would be consistent with a slowdown.

“Private markets and private credit can be very, very helpful,” says Andrew Davies, in reference to the emerging dislocations he sees in financial markets, on the latest Credit Exchange podcast with Lisa Lee. Davies is the head of credit at CVC Capital Partners, a global private markets manager with more than EUR 200bn in AUM.
That help could be in the form of helping banks that are struggling to offload underwritten debt, scooping up publicly trading debt that’s priced too low, or providing to financial sponsors who find banks pared back, Davies says.
“We’ve seen it every time there’s a period of volatility,” he adds.
CVC and private credit is still deploying, despite increasing geopolitical risks, fears of AI disruption, and negative headlines around the industry, particularly in the US. European private credit is different, Davies contends, with more stability in capital flows that are more reliant on institutional investors rather than affluent individuals. The opportunity in Europe is to access a fragmented market that is less mature and has less competitive tension.
“It’s been somewhat immune from that over the last year or so, in terms of what you’re sensing coming out of the news flow in the US,” Davies says.
His biggest worry is around a heightened risk environment in the geopolitical landscape. There has already been short-term price action in energy markets, which Europe is very exposed to. “Does that flow into inflation? Does that flow into rates? Does that flow into a number of things?” he asks.

“You are going to hit a little bit of a wall because of power. You’re going to hit a little bit of a wall, because of the sheer capital that’s supposed to be there to finance that piece,” says Joel Holsinger, co-head of alternative credit at Ares Management, on the latest edition of Credit Exchange with Lisa Lee.
Holsinger expects to see a slowdown, because the current level is “probably unsustainable” for the sheer amount of capital that is required for all these projects, along with the amount of power generation that needs to be built.
Already, banks are trying to reduce their exposure across some of their data centre names, Holsinger says – not due to risk or fear, but because they want to buy more.
“They’re already at capacity issues, because the opportunity set is so big,” he says.
Holsinger adds that there are emergent signs of concern for troubled credits.
“Right now, we’re in the situation where the tide has not gone out. That’s very clear,” he surmises, referencing Warren Buffett’s famous line. “Underlying fundamentals are generally good. But you’re seeing some random nudity on the beach.”
This said, Holsinger contends there are not yet huge cracks emerging in underlying credit markets, either on fundamentals or spreads. But he believes we are at the end of the cycle, and there is more news to come.
Holsinger, who is co-head of the Ares Charitable Foundation, also discusses philanthropy and “Promote Giving”, an innovative method to commit at least 5% of fund performance fees to charity.