Credit Exchange with Lisa Lee

• The health of the consumer is a canary in the coal mine – Arena’s Dan Zwirn

  “One interesting canary in the coal mine that has not been materially recognised, is the health of the consumer,” says Dan Zwirn, CEO, CIO and co-founder of Arena Investors, on the latest episode of Credit Exchange with Lisa Lee.Zwirn has observed delinquencies in unsecured obligations increase materially, as well as stress in areas like the sub-prime auto market. Original issue consumer lenders are selling off ‘charge-off paper’, which is distressed unsecured debt, at material and elevated amounts.Financial assets are providing the proper signals and indicating trouble in the economy, he says.“What we have seen since the GFC is that the innovation around the thwarting of price discovery has never been more rampant,” he said. “An example of how that touches the consumer is BNPL (buy now, pay later), where certain types of buying don’t necessarily hit consumer credit scores.”But policymakers do have a lot of tools in the toolkit to delay problems, which can stave off a traditional economic crisis. As a result, barring any extraordinary geopolitical events, the market is instead likely to experience a “slow grinding decline,” similar to what Japan experienced with its struggling economy.

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• Play quality as stress builds in corporate credit – Oak Hill Advisors’ Alan Schrager

  “As a professional investor, what we look at are actually the Treasury markets. They’re sending this signal that there’s this risk inherent,” says Alan Schrager, senior partner at Oak Hill Advisors, in the latest episode of Credit Exchange with Lisa Lee, speaking to the recent rise in long-term sovereign yields of developed countries. “You always think of the risk premium of the US Treasury to be zero. And now that's really what's changed is that there is a risk premium in there.”As for investing, Schrager says playing quality still makes more sense. “[Look] at a spread chart for almost any asset class and it’s tightened significantly,” he notes. And what happens in those kinds of markets is that it’s very hard to get paid for the risk you’re taking. The bottom part of the corporate debt market is starting to see some stress, including in private credit.That means there are now “little nuggets of opportunities” in decent companies that have now run their course. Oak Hill Advisors, which has nearly $100 billion in AUM focused on sub-investment grade corporate debt, is now focusing on trying to provide capital, in either restructuring or refinancing transactions that take decent companies with bad balance sheets and redo them.

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• Macro picture is the biggest risk for credit – Barclays’ Brad Rogoff

  The likelihood of a September rate cut has edged higher. “They will move ahead with that,” predicts Brad Rogoff, head of global research at Barclays, in the latest Credit Exchange podcast with Lisa Lee.He adds, however, that the market “does need to get used to lower job numbers,” citing what’s currently taking place with immigration and fewer people coming into the workforce. “Just to have a healthy job market, we're not going to have the same job gains as we had.”Rogoff expects inflation to be above the Fed’s target for the back half of this year and into 2026. Chances for a recession in the near term are low, but over a longer time period, perhaps the next two years, the risks are definitely increasing.Fiscal spending will provide some stability as a counterpoint. The yield curve could steepen further and less so than if the US Treasury was issuing in a different way, or if questions around Federal Reserve independence become even more acute.Meanwhile, in Asia, China is going to be a big focus for the rest of the year. “We’ll probably see some stimulative effects implemented in China, but I’m not convinced that there's any bazooka coming,” Rogoff observes. “If we see growth continue to lag in China, that’s probably got to be your biggest focus at this point in Asia.”But a slowing economy is still a positive backdrop for credit and spreads should be tightening, though perhaps not to the degree they have. While Rogoff worries a little bit about the complacency in the market, when he looks down the credit spectrum, markets are proving leery of riskier assets, such as those rated triple C. “It hasn’t necessarily been the rising tide lifting all boats,” he points out.

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• Seeing green shoots in commercial real estate – Western Asset’s Michael Buchanan

  “We’ve been increasing our exposure to prime office,” says Michael Buchanan, chief investment officer at Western Asset, a fixed income specialist owned by Franklin Templeton, in the latest Credit Exchange podcast with Lisa Lee.New York office property, especially the higher end, is doing very well, Buchanan observes. Also attractive are hotels, lodging, offices, multi-family accommodation and warehouses.Buchanan predicts a record year for commercial mortgage-backed securities (CMBS). “That’s really where our dollars that we have to allocate are going right now. And we probably have one of our highest exposures that we’ve had to CMBS in quite a long time.”On the macro front, Buchanan’s base case is for a temporary pickup in inflation due to tariffs, which will then revert to trending toward – though perhaps not hitting – the 2% target set by the Federal Reserve. The question is really about who will pay for tariffs – and it’s not clear exactly how that will play out.“Watching margins will give us a really good indication if the importers are paying for those tariffs,” Buchanan notes.Western Asset, which has nearly USD 200bn in assets under management, has been trimming their exposure to investment-grade and high-yield credit, due to valuation concerns. There’s still the likelihood of seeing some elevated volatility that will result in some spreads pushing wider. When that happens, it will give Western Asset a better entry point for adding some of that exposure back, Buchanan says.

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• We are seeing a slowdown in sales and earnings growth – Carlyle’s Lauren Basmadjian

  “From what I could see in our proprietary data, we are seeing a bit of a slowdown,” says Lauren Basmadjian, head of liquid credit at Carlyle, a powerhouse with USD 199bn in credit assets under management, in the latest ‘Credit Exchange’ podcast with Lisa Lee.It's early days, with only about 10% of the portfolio companies that Carlyle lends to having reported thus far. Cautioning that it’s not fulsome data, Basmadjian says that companies are reporting low-single-digit growth in the second quarter, down from mid-single-digit growth in the first. And it’s happening in both the US and Europe.When investing, be conservative right now, advises Basmadjian. For example, leveraged loan spreads have fallen to remarkably low levels, with some at tights not really seen before the Great Financial Crisis. Between the two markets, the European loan market offers better value, she believes.“When I look at the loan portfolios that we could put together in Europe versus the US, you probably capture an extra 60 basis points or so,” Basmadjian says.As for LBOs, Basmadjian says there are more processes going on in the background, but it’s too early to tell whether they’re going to come to fruition. “When pencils went down in April, pencils are back up now,” she notes.“But it takes a while to get the engine going. And we don’t expect to see a lot of new LBO and M&A activity for the remainder of the year. That saddens me to say. But I do think that there’s a lot more in the background, and it just takes a while for it to come to our market.”

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