Trade Wars, Economic Chaos, and Law: Unpacking Trump's Trade Tactics with Alan Sykes
Joining Pam for this week's episode is Stanford Law Professor Alan Sykes, a leading expert on the application of economics to legal problems whose most recent scholarship is focused on international economic relations. In short, he is an international trade and law expert—and the right person to help us understand today's chaos. The discussion covers the credibility of the United States in international trade negotiations, the feasibility of renegotiating trade deals with multiple countries within a short timeframe, and the unconventional methods employed by the Trump administration. Sykes also highlights the importance of previously negotiated deals and the World Trade Organization—and how the Trump administration has sidelined the organization. This episode offers a comprehensive look at the legal and economic dimensions of Trump's tariffs, making it a must-listen for anyone interested in understanding the complexities of modern trade policies.Links:Alan O. Sykes >>> Stanford Law pageThe Law and Economics of International Trade Agreements >>> Stanford Law pageConnect:Episode Transcripts >>> Stanford Legal Podcast WebsiteStanford Legal Podcast >>> LinkedIn PageRich Ford >>> Twitter/XPam Karlan >>> Stanford Law School PageStanford Law School >>> Twitter/XStanford Lawyer Magazine >>> Twitter/X (00:00:00) Introduction and Overview of Trump's Tariffs(00:04:05) Impact on Imported Goods and Consumers(00:04:34) Exemptions and Intermediate Goods(00:05:14) Historical Context of U.S. Tariffs(00:24:38) Credibility of the United States and the 90-Day Pause
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32:52
Trump’s Forced Deportations to El Salvador Prisons, Detentions, and Fear on College Campuses
Do asylum seekers in the U.S. have rights? Can the U.S. government forcibly deport them to a prison in El Salvador without due process? What about green card holders attending college? Since taking office, President Trump has focused on legal and undocumented immigrants alike, from Venezuelan asylum seekers to visa and green card college students—invoking the Alien Enemies Act to deport some, and even defying court orders. In this episode, Stanford Law immigration law expert Jennifer Chacón joins Rich Ford for a discussion about these unprecedented actions while also addressing the broader implications for human rights and the U.S.'s role as a refuge for persecuted individuals—and the potential for America's diminished international reputation and influence in the world.Links:Jennifer Chacón >>> Stanford Law pageLegal Phantoms >>> Stanford Law pageSurveillance Footage Shows Arrest of Tufts U. Student >>> NY Times pageWhat the Venezuelans Deported to El Salvador Experienced >>> Time magazine pageConnect:Episode Transcripts >>> Stanford Legal Podcast WebsiteStanford Legal Podcast >>> LinkedIn PageRich Ford >>> Twitter/XPam Karlan >>> Stanford Law School PageStanford Law School >>> Twitter/XStanford Lawyer Magazine >>> Twitter/X (00:00:00) : Introduction of guest Jennifer Chacón and Unprecedented Actions(00:09:00): Redefinition of Wartime Acts and Due Process(00:17:56): Legal Frameworks and Immigration Detention(00:18:36): Aggressive Tactics and Legal Boundaries(00:31:55): Vision of the United States and Future Outlook(00:32:54): Vigilance and Civic Engagement
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33:43
Accountability in Government: Glenn Fine on the Crucial Role of Inspectors General, the Government's Watchdogs
How do we prevent or catch mismanagement, corruption, and waste of taxpayers' dollars in federal agencies? On January 24, 2025, days into his second administration, President Trump fired Inspectors General from 17 different federal agencies, including the Department of Labor. If no one is watching, does that mean there's nothing to see?In this episode Pam Karlan is joined by Glenn Fine, a former Inspector General of both the Department of Justice and the Department of Defense. Glenn highlights the extensive work involved in detecting and deterring waste, fraud, and abuse within these massive agencies. He discusses the differences between the DOJ and DOD, emphasizing the unique challenges and the importance of understanding each agency's culture and operations. Through detailed examples, including politicized hiring at the DOJ and a tragic incident at the Bureau of Prisons, he illustrates the breadth and impact of the investigations conducted by Inspectors General—and the essential function of these watchdogs in maintaining integrity and accountability within federal agencies. Earlier in his career, Glenn served as an Assistant United States Attorney in Washington D.C., where he handled criminal cases, including more than 35 jury trials. He also worked in private practice in two law firms. He is the author of the book Watchdogs: Inspectors General and the Battle for Honest and Accountable Government, with a foreword by General Jim Mattis. He currently is a fellow at the Brookings Institution and serves as an Adjunct Professor of Law at Georgetown University—and as a visiting lecturer at Stanford Law School.Links:Glenn Fine >>> Stanford Law pageWatchdogs >>> UVA Press pageConnect:Episode Transcripts >>> Stanford Legal Podcast WebsiteStanford Legal Podcast >>> LinkedIn PageRich Ford >>> Twitter/XPam Karlan >>> Stanford Law School PageStanford Law School >>> Twitter/XStanford Lawyer Magazine >>> Twitter/X(00:00:00) Introduction and Overview of the Inspector General's Role(00:03:52) The Impact of Inspector General Reports(00:04:39) Notable Investigations at DOJ and DOD(00:15:56) The Role of the Defense Criminal Investigative Service(00:17:23) Coordinating COVID-19 Relief Oversight(00:27:59) Importance of the IG's role in maintaining government accountability
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28:18
Gaza Conflict: Governance, Rebuilding, and Legal Challenges
International Law expert Allen Weiner joins Pam for a comprehensive overview of the legal challenges and humanitarian concerns in one of the world's most contentious regions, looking at the Israel/Gaza conflict and the delicate balance between military strategy and civilian safety. Allen and Pam explore the principles of proportionality in warfare, highlighting the legal and ethical considerations of targeting high-level military commanders in civilian areas. They then discuss President Trump's controversial proposal for Gaza's future and its plan to transform the region into a resort. The conversation also touches on the ICJ indictments against Palestinian and Israeli leaders, the role of satellite imagery in legal research, and the broader implications of governance and security in Gaza. Links:Allen Weiner >>> Stanford Law page“There is Nothing Left: Jus ad Bellum Proportionality and Israel’s War Against Hamas in Gaza” >>> Stanford Law publication pageConnect:Episode Transcripts >>> Stanford Legal Podcast WebsiteStanford Legal Podcast >>> LinkedIn PageRich Ford >>> Twitter/XPam Karlan >>> Stanford Law School PageStanford Law School >>> Twitter/XStanford Lawyer Magazine >>> Twitter/X(00:00:00) Introduction and Overview of Gaza Conflict (00:04:20) Proportionality in Warfare (00:19:50) The Day After Phenomenon (00:28:22) Governance and Security of Gaza (00:29:11) Conclusion and Call to Action
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29:39
Suing DOGE: Musk, Trump, and an Imperial Presidency
A coalition of privacy defenders led by Lex Lumina and the Electronic Frontier Foundation filed a lawsuit on February 11 asking a federal court to stop the U.S. Office of Personnel Management (OPM) from disclosing millions of Americans’ private, sensitive information to Elon Musk and his “Department of Government Efficiency” (DOGE). As the federal government is the nation’s largest employer, the records held by OPM represent one of the largest collections of sensitive personal data in the country.Is this a big deal? Should we care? Joining Pam today is Stanford Law Professor Mark Lemley, an expert in intellectual property, patent law, trademark law, antitrust, the law of robotics and AI, video game law, and remedies. Lemley is of counsel with the law firm Lex Lumina and closely involved in the DOGE case. In this episode, Lemley overviews urgent privacy concerns that led to this lawsuit, laws such as the Privacy Act, and legal next steps for this case. The conversation shifts to the current political landscape, highlighting the unprecedented influence of Silicon Valley, particularly under the Musk administration. Lemley contrasts the agile, authoritative management style of Silicon Valley billionaires with the traditionally slow-moving federal bureaucracy, raising concerns about legality and procedural adherence. The conversation also touches on the demise of the Chevron doctrine and the possible rise of an imperial presidency, drawing parallels between the Supreme Court's and the executive branch's power grabs—and how Lemley's 2022 paper, "The Imperial Supreme Court," predicted the Court's trend towards consolidating power. This episode offers a compelling examination of how technological and corporate ideologies are influencing American law.Links:Mark Lemley >>> Stanford Law page“The Imperial Supreme Court” >>> Stanford Law publication pageConnect:Episode Transcripts >>> Stanford Legal Podcast WebsiteStanford Legal Podcast >>> LinkedIn PageRich Ford >>> Twitter/XPam Karlan >>> Stanford Law School PageStanford Law School >>> Twitter/XStanford Lawyer Magazine >>> Twitter/X(00:00:00) The Rise of Executive Power(00:07:22) Concerns About Data Handling and Privacy(00:08:41) The Impact of Silicon Valley's Ethos on Government(00:14:01) The Musk Administration's Approach(00:18:01) The Role of the Supreme Court(00:24:43) Silicon Valley's Influence on Washington
Law touches most aspects of life. Here to help make sense of it is the Stanford Legal podcast, where we look at the cases, questions, conflicts, and legal stories that
affect us all every day.
Stanford Legal launched in 2017 as a radio show on Sirius XM. We’re now a standalone podcast and we’re back after taking some time away, so don’t forget to subscribe or follow this feed. That way you’ll have access to new episodes as soon as they’re available.
We know that the law can be complicated. In past episodes we discussed a broad range of topics from the legal rights of someone in a conservatorship like Britney Spears to the Supreme Court’s abortion decision to how American law firms had to untangle their Russian businesses after the invasion of Ukraine. Past episodes are still available in our back catalog of episodes.
In future shows, we’ll bring on experts to help make sense of things like machine learning and developments in the regulation of artificial intelligence, how the states draw voting maps, and ways that the Supreme Court’s affirmative action ruling will change college admissions.
Our co-hosts know a bit about these topics because it’s their life’s work.
Pam Karlan studies and teaches what is known as the “law of democracy,”—the law that regulates voting, elections, and the political process. She served as a commissioner on the California Fair Political Practices Commission, an assistant counsel and cooperating attorney for the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, and (twice) as a Deputy Assistant Attorney General in the Civil Rights Division of the U.S. Department of Justice. She also co-directs Stanford’s Supreme Court Litigation Clinic, which represents real clients before the highest court in the country, working on important cases including representing Edith Windsor in the landmark marriage equality win and David Riley in a case where the Supreme Court held that the police generally can’t search digital information on a cell phone seized from an individual who has been arrested unless they first get a warrant. She has argued before the Court nine times.
And Rich Ford’s teaching and writing looks at the relationship between law and equality, cities and urban development, popular culture and everyday life. He teaches local government law, employment discrimination, and the often-misunderstood critical race theory. He studied with and advised governments around the world on questions of equality law, lectured at places like the Sorbonne in Paris on the relationship of law and popular culture, served as a commissioner for the San Francisco Housing Commission, and worked with cities on how to manage neighborhood change and volatile real estate markets. He writes about law and popular culture for lawyers, academics, and popular audiences. His latest book is Dress Codes: How the Laws of Fashion Made History, a legal history of the rules and laws that influence what we wear.
The law is personal for all of us—and pivotal. The landmark civil rights laws of the 1960s have made discrimination illegal but the consequences of the Jim Crow laws imposed after the civil war are still with us, reflected in racially segregated schools and neighborhoods and racial imbalances in our prisons and conflict between minority communities and police. Unequal gender roles and stereotypes still keep women from achieving equality in professional status and income. Laws barring gay people from marrying meant that millions lived lives of secrecy and shame. New technologies present new legal questions: should AI decide who gets hired or how long convicted criminals go to prison? What can we do about social media’s influence on our elections? Can Chat GPT get copyright in a novel?
Law matters. We hope you’ll listen to new episodes that will drop on Thursdays every two weeks.
To learn more, go to https://law.stanford.edu/stanford-legal-podcast/.
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