The Innovation Show

"Narcissists do draw people in. They start with really appealing visions — and then the wheels come off."
About 2% of people are narcissists. Among CEOs, it's roughly 16%. Jennifer Chatman — Dean of the Haas School of Business at UC Berkeley and one of the world's leading scholars of organisational culture — joins Aidan McCullen to explain why narcissistic leadership is so often mistaken for visionary leadership, and how to tell the two apart before one wrecks your company.
Drawing on her widely cited article with Stanford's Charles O'Reilly, "Transformational Leader or Narcissist?", and her new book Making Organizational Culture Great, Jennifer separates the grandiose vision we admire from the exploitation that comes attached to it. This episode follows directly on from the two-part Geoffrey Cain series on Steve Jobs in exile — because Jobs is one of the case studies.
In this conversation, Jennifer reveals:
Why a narcissistic CEO's pay quietly pulls away from their team's over time — and what that gap really measures
The single interview question that exposes a narcissist: "Who did you bring along with you?"
Why Steve Jobs ended his career with 13 senior leaders who'd stayed 13 years — and what that says about him
How "grandiose vision" and "narcissism" overlap on a Venn diagram — and where they split
The "dark triad" that turns confidence into damage: narcissism, psychopathy, Machiavellianism
Why narcissistic CEOs file far more lawsuits — yet win no more of them
The counter-intuitive team move: group your narcissists together
Why narcissism's damage to a culture is "sticky" — it lingers long after the leader leaves
How to shield yourself when you can't leave — and when to look for the exit
Why chaos and uncertainty are a narcissist's favourite weather
Chapters
00:00 Cold open: how narcissist CEOs pull away from their teams
02:00 Welcome Jennifer Chatman, and the Steve Jobs connection
04:00 Kalanick, Holmes, Trump: the quotes that give a narcissist away
05:00 Why 16% of CEOs are narcissists — and how they draw you in
07:00 The delayed damage: pay, credit, and the dark triad
16:00 The one question that exposes a narcissist
19:00 Risk, lawsuits, and the denial of failure
24:00 Ethics, collaboration, and the sticky cost to culture
27:00 How to protect yourself, and Making Organizational Culture Great
(Timestamps follow the transcript markers — shift after the final edit.)
About the Host
Aidan McCullen, 2025 Thinkers50 Innovation Award recipient, keynote speaker on AI/disruption/innovation/change, host of The Innovation Show, author of Undisruptable: A Mindset of Permanent Reinvention (Wiley). Links: https://theinnovationshow.io/about-aidan-mccullen 
About the Guest
Jennifer A. Chatman is the Bank of America Dean of the Haas School of Business at UC Berkeley and a leading scholar of organisational culture and narcissistic leadership. She co-created the Organizational Culture Profile and co-hosts the podcast The Culture Kit with Jenny & Sameer. With Stanford's Charles O'Reilly she wrote the widely cited article "Transformational Leader or Narcissist? How Grandiose Narcissists Can Create and Destroy Organizations and Institutions," and with Glenn Carroll she is the author of Making Organizational Culture Great: Moving Beyond Popular Beliefs (Columbia Business School Publishing, 2026). Link: https://www.jenniferachatman.com
About The Innovation Show
The Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Host Aidan McCullen sits down with world-class authors, scientists and practitioners on disruption, innovation, transformation, leadership, AI and the ideas shaping tomorrow.
This series is brought to you by Kyndryl, who run and reimagine the technology systems that drive advantage for the world's leading businesses. With a unique blend of AI-powered consulting built on unmatched managed-service capability, Kyndryl helps leaders harness technology for smarter decisions, faster innovation, and lasting competitive edge. Learn more about Kyndryl and the Kyndryl Institute at https://www.kyndryl.com.
Subscribe to the Thursday Thought on Substack for a chance to win a copy of Making Organizational Culture Great, with thanks to Kyndryl: https://thethursdaythought.substack.com
Connect:
Website: https://theinnovationshow.io
Substack (Thursday Thought): https://thethursdaythought.substack.com
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/the-innovation-show/id1148455669
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/63nFKf4bsSWo3W72gWtOsK?si=b62d9614237c4450
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/theinnovationshow
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aidanmccullen

Steve Jobs sold barely 100 computers a month at NeXT — and told his team they'd sell 100,000. This is the decade everyone skips.
Author Geoffrey Cain joins Aidan McCullen for part two on Steve Jobs in Exile, the story of the wilderness years between Jobs' 1985 ousting from Apple and his return. Cain reframes the NeXT era not as a triumphant hero's journey but as a cascade of failure, ego and self-sabotage that quietly forged the leader Jobs became.
In this conversation, Geoffrey reveals:
Why the "reality distortion field" stopped working the moment the $6,500 NeXTcube shipped
How Jobs sabotaged an IBM deal that could have made NeXTSTEP, not Windows, the world's operating system
The airport moment he abandoned his own salesman in front of 800 IBM engineers
Why he killed Ross Perot's pipeline to the CIA, NSA and Pentagon with five words: "I don't like the feds"
How a Daffy Duck demo blew up a Disney deal worth thousands of computers
Why Tim Berners-Lee built the entire World Wide Web on a single NeXTcube in 1990
How the creators of Doom were turned away because Jobs "didn't like games"
The advisor's warning Jobs ignored for a decade: "your assets have feet"
Why putting on a grey suit to sell enterprise software was the moment he finally grew up
The random mid-level phone call — not Jobs' idea — that put him back on the road to Apple
Chapters:
00:00 Think beyond use cases
00:38 Sponsor message
01:03 Part two begins
01:54 NeXT revenge era
03:48 Reality distorts back
04:56 Cube launch hype
05:59 Sales reality check
06:48 Founder market lesson
08:04 The hero–shithead rollercoaster
12:09 Carrot and stick leadership
13:25 Assets have feet
14:57 Co-founders depart
17:50 Buggy cube problems
18:53 Writing the donut hole
19:57 Canon investment drama
21:33 IBM deal sabotage
25:40 Ross Perot fallout
28:13 No feds market
28:48 Disney deal blow-up
31:03 NeXT powers the web
32:32 Doom and missed gaming
33:28 Lesson for AI builders
35:32 Motorola dumps NeXT
38:40 Rock bottom pivot
40:07 Enterprise sales Jobs
43:34 WebObjects breakthrough
48:06 Pixar vindication
51:05 Phone call to Apple
54:47 Wrap up and sponsor
About Geoffrey Cain:
Geoffrey Cain is an author and investigative journalist. His book Steve Jobs in Exile chronicles the NeXT and Pixar years, and he also wrote Samsung Rising.
Website: https://geoffreycain.net
Substack (The Burner Files): https://geoffreycain.substack.com
X: https://x.com/Geoffrey_Cain
About The Innovation Show:
The Innovation Show is the Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Host Aidan McCullen sits down with world-class authors, scientists and practitioners on disruption, innovation, change, leadership, AI and the ideas shaping tomorrow.
Subscribe to the Thursday Thought on Substack for extra content and webinars.
Connect:
Website: https://theinnovationshow.io
Substack: https://thethursdaythought.substack.com
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/the-innovation-show/id1148455669
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/63nFKf4bsSWo3W72gWtOsK?si=b62d9614237c4450
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/theinnovationshow
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aidanmccullen
About the Author
Geoffrey Cain is an author and investigative journalist, and the author of Steve Jobs in Exile and Samsung Rising.
https://geoffreycain.net — https://geoffreycain.substack.com
About the Host
Aidan McCullen is the 2025 Thinkers50 Innovation Award recipient, keynote speaker on AI, disruption, innovation, and change, host of The Innovation Show, and author of Undisruptable: A Mindset of Permanent Reinvention (Wiley).
https://theinnovationshow.io/about-aidan-mccullen

Steve Jobs was nearly bankrupt — down to his last $150 million, burning $50 million a year, with every product failing and every investor gone.
Award-winning journalist Geoffrey Cain, author of Steve Jobs in Exile: The Untold Story of NeXT and the Remaking of a Technology Visionary, joins Aidan McCullen to tell the story the official Jobs narrative leaves out: the dozen years between his firing from Apple in 1985 and his triumphant return. Drawing on unbroadcast NeXT footage, new interviews and internal documents, Cain reveals the failures, the revenge and the near-misses that forged the leader who saved Apple.
In this conversation, Geoffrey reveals:
Why Steve Jobs was three years from bankruptcy in the early 1990s
The "low-level employees" lie that made Apple sue its own co-founder
Why the lawsuit backfired and handed Jobs exactly what he wanted
How a Bill Gates talk about CD-ROMs accidentally named NeXT
Why revenge on John Sculley — not changing the world — drove the founding of NeXT
The "hero–shithead rollercoaster" every NeXT executive insisted Cain had to understand
The "deep shit list" Jobs ran the company on — and the mindset shift that replaced it
How George Lucas's divorce handed Jobs Pixar at a fire-sale price
Why Ross Perot bet $20 million on a company with no product
"Steve on a Stick" — the celebrity sales act that kept NeXT alive
Chapters: 
00:00 Failures Before Fame
01:03 Sponsor Message
01:36 NeXT Years Overview
02:50 Meet Geoffrey Cain
06:46 Survivorship Bias Lens
08:59 Near Bankruptcy Stakes
11:50 Fired From Apple 1985
14:37 Summer In Exile
19:11 Rival Jean-Louis Gassée
22:22 Dan'l Lewin And Education
27:32 Revenge Fuels NeXT
30:52 Apple Sues Steve Jobs
34:37 Lawsuit Backfires
36:23 Naming NeXT
39:02 Betting Careers On Steve
42:08 Pixar Fire Sale Bet
45:28 Working With Steve
46:31 Hero Shithead Rollercoaster
49:11 NeXT Talent Hierarchy
53:14 Luxury Spending Spree
58:32 Ross Perot Big Check
01:02:04 Deep Shit List Management
01:08:28 Canon Optical Disk Gamble
01:13:38 Businessland Sales Fallout
01:17:22 Wrap Up And Sponsor
Find Geoffrey Cain at https://geoffreycain.net, on X at @Geoffrey_Cain and on LinkedIn (GCain).
This series is brought to you by Kyndryl, who run and reimagine the technology systems that drive advantage for the world's leading businesses. Learn more about Kyndryl and the Kyndryl Institute at https://www.kyndryl.com.
Subscribe to the Thursday Thought on Substack for a chance to win a copy of Steve Jobs in Exile, with thanks to Kyndryl: https://thethursdaythought.substack.com
About The Innovation Show: The Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Aidan McCullen hosts world-class authors, scientists and practitioners on disruption, innovation, change, transformation, leadership, AI and the ideas shaping tomorrow.
About the Host: Aidan McCullen is the 2025 Thinkers50 Innovation Award recipient, keynote speaker on AI, disruption, innovation, and change, host of The Innovation Show, and author of Undisruptable: A Mindset of Permanent Reinvention (Wiley). Learn more at https://theinnovationshow.io/about-aidan-mccullen 
Website: https://theinnovationshow.io
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/the-innovation-show/id1148455669
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/63nFKf4bsSWo3W72gWtOsK?si=b62d9614237c4450
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/theinnovationshow
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aidanmccullen

One developer. Six months. An $80 million sale to Wix. That's not the future of work — it's already here.
In this special panel from the Kyndryl Institute and The Innovation Show, host Aidan McCullen brings together four of the world's sharpest minds on strategy, innovation and disruption to explain why most leaders are using AI completely wrong — and what to do instead. Rita McGrath (Columbia, author of The Entrepreneurial Mindset and originator of "transient advantage"), Alexander Osterwalder (creator of the Business Model Canvas, CEO of Strategyzer), Ismail Amla (SVP at Kyndryl, author of From Incremental to Exponential) and Usman Sheikh (author of Frame Break, MD of High Output Ventures) map how work, value and power are being redrawn.
In this conversation, the panel reveals:
Why painting over a rusty gate explains how most companies are misusing AI
How a single developer sold an $80 million company to Wix after six months of solo work
What Jensen Huang does every Sunday night to stay connected to NVIDIA's front line
Why Bayer put its whole workforce on 90-day cycles — and how it kills office politics
The "verification bottleneck" that quietly cancels out every speed gain from AI
Why one firm tracking staff AI logins for promotions missed the point entirely
How the billable hour is dying — and what replaces it
Why labour arbitrage flipped from advantage to liability in just twelve months
What a Korean fintech founded by a dentist (Toss) teaches us about permissionless teams
Where incumbents still hold a moat that AI-native startups can't touch
Chapters: 00:00 AI Moment Opens
00:35 Meet The Panel
02:20 Rewiring Organisations 
03:36 Rusty Gate Lesson
04:25 Entrepreneurial CEO Return 
06:28 Permissionless Transition
08:39 One-Person Unicorns
10:13 Power Redefined
13:17 Verification Bottleneck 
15:46 Agents In The Enterprise 
20:22 Gaming AI Metrics
22:54 Death Of The Billable Hour 
24:23 Electricity Era Analogy
26:18 Business Model Fundamentals 
28:04 Rethinking Business Models
29:04 AI Native vs Legacy
29:49 Services Industry Upended
33:40 First Steps For Incumbents
37:51 Toss And Team Autonomy
41:17 Incentives And Accountability
45:42 Incumbent Data Moats
47:50 Elevator Pitches And Wrap-Up
The panel: Rita McGrath — https://www.ritamcgrath.com
Alexander Osterwalder / Strategyzer — https://www.strategyzer.com
Ismail Amla, From Incremental to Exponential — https://www.kyndryl.com
Usman Sheikh, Frame Break — https://highoutputventures.com
This series is brought to you by Kyndryl, who run and reimagine the technology systems that drive advantage for the world's leading businesses. With a unique blend of AI-powered consulting built on unmatched managed-service capability, Kyndryl helps leaders harness technology for smarter decisions, faster innovation, and lasting competitive edge. Learn more about Kyndryl and the Kyndryl Institute at https://www.kyndryl.com.
Subscribe to the Thursday Thought on Substack : https://thethursdaythought.substack.com
About The Innovation Show: The Thinkers50-recognised podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes. Each week, Aidan McCullen sits down with world-class authors, scientists and practitioners to explore disruption, innovation, change, leadership, AI and the ideas shaping tomorrow.
About the host: Aidan McCullen — 2025 Thinkers50 Innovation Award recipient, keynote speaker on AI, disruption, innovation and change, host of The Innovation Show, and author of Undisruptable: A Mindset of Permanent Reinvention (Wiley). https://theinnovationshow.io/about-aidan-mccullen 
Follow and subscribe:
Website: https://theinnovationshow.io
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/the-innovation-show/id1148455669
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/63nFKf4bsSWo3W72gWtOsK
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/theinnovationshow
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aidanmccullen

What if the best practices taught in every business school are quietly destroying the organisations that follow them? Eric Ries — author of Incorruptible: Why Good Companies Go Bad and How Great Companies Stay Great and founder of the Long-Term Stock Exchange — joins Aidan McCullen to expose the hidden forces that corrupt mission-driven organisations, and to reveal the structural defences that keep outliers like Costco immune.
About Eric Ries Eric Ries is an entrepreneur and the bestselling author of The Lean Startup. His new book, Incorruptible, maps the structural forces that destroy company missions and lays out a blueprint for building organisations that resist them. He is also the founder of the Long-Term Stock Exchange (LTSE).
About Aidan McCullen Aidan McCullen is a Thinkers50-recognised host, keynote speaker, author of Undisruptable, and former professional athlete. He is the founder and host of The Innovation Show — the podcast where square pegs find their place in a world of round holes.
In this conversation, Eric reveals:
Why mission drift and bureaucracy are really corruption — and why naming them that changes everything
How financial gravity silently pulls every organisation toward value extraction unless actively resisted
The professor story that launched the book — and the question that haunts every founder: is it even possible to build an incorruptible organisation?
The LTSE ambush: how Eric's team chose potential bankruptcy over compromising their principles — and why that decision ultimately saved the company
Why the founder hero story and the market story are the same story told backwards — and how that confusion destroys organisations from the inside
The golden goose paradox: why Sol Price and Robert Owen kept losing control of the very organisations they built
The Costco governance fortress — how Jim Sinegal created a structure that protects the fiduciary-to-the-customer ethos no matter how hard Wall Street pushes back
00:00 Sponsor Message
00:26 Naming Corruption
02:32 Why Best Practices Fail
05:08 Professor Story Wake Up Call
09:57 Financial Gravity And Strength
12:26 LTSE Ambush And Principles
19:14 Founder Hero Vs Market Story
23:56 Golden Goose And Case Studies
25:19 Sol Price And Robert Owen
30:46 Costco Governance Fortress
33:15 Wrap Up And Resources
34:26 Sponsor Outro
Guest links:
Book: https://amzn.to/4e89kOx
More resources: https://www.incorruptible.co/resources/more-failures
Subscribe to the Thursday Thought on Substack for a chance to win a copy of Incorruptible, with thanks to Kyndryl: https://thethursdaythought.substack.com
Subscribe and follow: https://theinnovationshow.io
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/the-innovation-show/id1148455669
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/63nFKf4bsSWo3W72gWtOsK?si=b62d9614237c4450
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/theinnovationshow
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aidanmccullen