The Symbolic World

Kale Zelden is a literature teacher and writer and in this video he joins me to discuss reading, the "Great books", and what it means to recover the reading tradition in a modern context. We talk about how to encounter old texts, what reading can contribute to our lives, and how to approach authors like Homer, Dante, and Shakespeare without reducing them to modern assumptions. We also explore the limits of the novel, modernism, postmodernism, irony, and the essential rediscovery of the epic.

YouTube version: https://youtu.be/9zps7RIov44

Kale’s Substack, The Underneath: https://kalezelden.substack.com/

Join us at the Symbolic World Summit | May 14-16 | Ohio | Keynote speakers: Jonathan Pageau, Fr. Josiah Trenham, Mary Harrington, Dcn. Seraphim Rohlin, Kale Zelden, Annie Crawford, and Heather Pollington
Buy your tickets: https://symbolicworldsummit.com/ 

Learn more about Pavel Shchelin's phenomenal course on Plutarch, Live now: https://www.thesymbolicworld.com/courses/plutarch-symbolism-in-history

TIMESTAMPS
00:00 - Coming up
01:07 - Intro music
01:32 - Introduction
02:09 - The state of education
07:30 - First of all
10:47 - The power of analogy
13:11 - Select your curriculum
21:05 - What is canon?
33:24 - What are we moving towards
39:20 - Allegory
43:47 - What is modernism?
47:50 - Great books program
53:24 - What is the epic?

BOOKS MENTIONED IN THIS DISCUSSION:
00:04:45
 Augustine — Confessions — Spiritual autobiography, early Christian thought
 Plato — Dialogues — Philosophy of truth, justice, knowledge
 Aristotle — (various works) — Ethics, logic, metaphysics
 Church Fathers — (various writings) — Foundations of Christian theology
00:06:20
 Anne Rice — (novels) — Modern popular fiction
 Shakespeare — (general works) — Foundational drama
 Beowulf — Anonymous — Old English epic poem
00:06:49
 Plato — Dialogues — Rediscovered philosophical texts
00:07:32
 Shakespeare — Hamlet — Tragedy of revenge and doubt
 Dante — Divine Comedy — Vision of Hell, Purgatory, Heaven
 Chaucer — Canterbury Tales — Medieval storytelling
 Mary Shelley — Frankenstein — Creation and responsibility
 Milton — Paradise Lost — Epic of the Fall
00:13:55
 Kerouac — On the Road — Modern freedom and experience
 Camus — (e.g. The Stranger) — Existential philosophy
00:14:31
 Homer — Iliad, Odyssey — Foundational epics
 Plato — Apology, Republic — Justice and philosophy
 Shakespeare —
Romeo and Juliet — Tragic love
Julius Caesar — Politics and betrayal
Macbeth — Ambition and guilt
A Midsummer Night’s Dream — Comedy and illusion
King Lear — Suffering and authority
Hamlet — Existential tragedy
The Tempest — Reconciliation
00:16:21
 Dostoevsky — Crime and Punishment — Guilt and redemption
 Dostoevsky — The Brothers Karamazov — Faith and morality
00:21:31
 Voyage of St. Brendan — Medieval Christian voyage
 Apocalypse of Pseudo-Methodius — Apocalyptic text
 The Golden Legend — Jacobus de Voragine — Saints’ lives
00:21:58
 Cervantes — Don Quixote — Satire of chivalry, early novel
00:22:51
 Jane Austen — Pride and Prejudice — Social psychology
00:23:59
 Milton — Paradise Lost — (revisited, epic psychology)
00:26:11
 Faulkner — (novels) — Fragmented modern storytelling
00:33:41
 C.S. Lewis — On Stories — Defense of story over psychology
 C.S. Lewis — Abolition of Man — Critique of modern values
 C.S. Lewis — Miracles — Defense of the supernatural
00:37:05
 Sondheim — Into the Woods — Modern fairy tale deconstruction
00:38:55
 Rabelais — Gargantua and Pantagruel — Satirical, playful text
00:44:06
 Melville — Moby-Dick — Epic-scale novel
 Hemingway — The Sun Also Rises — Modern disillusionment
00:49:42
 Ovid — Metamorphoses — Mythic transformations
00:46:13 (thinkers mentioned)
 Lyotard — Postmodern philosophy
 Derrida — Deconstruction
 Heidegger — Phenomenology
00:53:14
 Virgil — Aeneid — Roman epic
 Bible — (Moses narrative) — Epic of calling and suffering

🔓 Become a patron to support us and unlock exclusive monthly symbolism content: https://thesymbolicworld.com/subscribe
💻 Website and blog: http://www.thesymbolicworld.com
🔗 Linktree: https://linktr.ee/jonathanpageau  
🎧 Listen to and review The Symbolic World podcast:
-Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0gI8bUwPtT3gkduHqNh6M5
-Apple podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-symbolic-world/id1386867488 
Our website designers: https://www.resonancehq.io/ 
My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson: https://matthewwilkinson.net/

We often assume that being “historically accurate” means getting closer to the truth, but that’s not always the case. In this video, I explore how modern, mechanical thinking can actually invert meaning, using the example of Christ’s crucifixion. 
What matters most is not just the mechanical details of how something could have happened, but what it means and its actual implications.

Watch this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/HXsbK_k8vn4

SUMMIT 2026: Join us for the Symbolic World Summit 2026! Speakers include Fr. Josiah Trenham, Mary Harrington, Jonathan Pageau, Dn. Seraphim Rohlin, and others.
Date: May 14-16
Place: Broadview Heights, OH
Don't miss out! Hope to see you there: https://symbolicworldsummit.com/

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NEW COURSE: Plutarch: Symbolism in History with Pavel Shchelin
The problem with history is that you are in it. Plutarch teaches us to read power symbolically—asking "whom does the hero serve?" to predict leadership patterns before they play out.
Presenter: Pavel Shchelin
Duration: 8 weeks studying the lives of Greeks and Roman Lycurgus, Alcibiades, Lysander, Pompey, Caesar, and Octavian –as living patterns, not dead men.
Live classes are on Wednesdays at 4-6pm Eastern Time, starting March 18th through May 6th, 2026.
Price: $180 USD - Involved patrons can get a 10% discount. Apply your code at checkout. 
Register now: https://www.thesymbolicworld.com/courses/plutarch-symbolism-in-history
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🔓 Become a patron to support us and unlock exclusive monthly symbolism content: https://thesymbolicworld.com/subscribe
💻 Website and blog: http://www.thesymbolicworld.com
🔗 Linktree: https://linktr.ee/jonathanpageau  

Our website designers: https://www.resonancehq.io/ 
My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson: https://matthewwilkinson.net/

In this conversation, I sat down with Mary Harrington about technology and the online world.
Mary reflects on her path as a writer, the evolution of online culture, and the growing difficulty of discerning truth in the digital environment. We also touch on memory, embodiment, cancel culture, and politics. 

YouTube version: https://youtu.be/eeBZuA0S1ZE

Mary will be speaking at the Symbolic World Summit. The theme of the conference is Retelling the Cosmic Epic, and Mary’s talk will be titled: 'Rebuild the Monasteries'
Description:
In an age of AI "slop" and flattened culture, how do we understand, and cultivate, what makes us distinctly human? Mary Harrington will argue that there is no need to reinvent the wheel. Premodern practices of memory and prayer, once cultivated in Europe's monasteries, can refresh our imaginations and salvage our human cultures in the digital age.
Come join us at Woodside Event Center | Broadview Heights, Ohio | May 14-16, 2026
Early Bird Pricing – Ends March 26th: Save $50 on both General Admission and VIP tickets
Buy tickets now: https://symbolicworldsummit.com/ 

=====
NEW COURSE: Plutarch: Symbolism in History with Pavel Shchelin
The problem with history is that you are in it. Plutarch teaches us to read power symbolically—asking "whom does the hero serve?" to predict leadership patterns before they play out.
Presenter: Pavel Shchelin
Duration: 8 weeks studying the lives of Greeks and Roman Lycurgus, Alcibiades, Lysander, Pompey, Caesar, and Octavian –as living patterns, not dead men.
Live classes are on Wednesdays at 4-6pm Eastern Time, starting March 18th through May 6th, 2026.
Price: $180 USD - Involved patrons can get a 10% discount. Apply your code at checkout. 
Register now: https://www.thesymbolicworld.com/courses/plutarch-symbolism-in-history 
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Jonathan and Mary's discussion on Socrates in the City: https://youtu.be/nrsjZKPH4WA?si=kaM5zE2Qj-4XCD1K

Timestamps:
00:00 - Coming up
01:07 - Intro music
01:32 - Introduction
02:14 - Mary's journey
09:00 - The meaning of meaning
10:46 - The singularity already happened
12:53 - Being connected
17:28 - The printing press industrial template
20:52 - AI
22:21 - Using AI
25:47 - Internet platforms and politics
32:10 - Being anonymous
35:37 - Politics
37:44 - The end of the printing press
39:47 - The end of the industrial era
42:46 - Cancel culture
46:56 - Treasure houses

🔓 Become a patron to support us and unlock exclusive monthly symbolism content: https://thesymbolicworld.com/subscribe 💻 Website and blog: http://www.thesymbolicworld.com 🔗 Linktree: https://linktr.ee/jonathanpageau Our website designers: https://www.resonancehq.io/ My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson: https://matthewwilkinson.net/

In this conversation I speak with Dr. Zachary Porcu about his book, Journey to Reality: Sacramental Life in a Secular Age, and the challenge of explaining true Christian thinking to modern people. We discuss how modern assumptions about the world make it difficult to understand ideas like sacraments, participation, and the relationship between the spiritual and material. Dr. Porcu explains why he wrote the book and how reframing basic categories—what we mean by God, religion, and reality—is often necessary before theology can make sense.

YouTube version: https://youtu.be/Qd9xENDzfRo 
Please review the Symbolic World podcast on Spotify or Apple podcasts. 

Dr. Zac’s website and book: https://zacharyporcu.com/
The Roots of Everything podcast (YouTube): https://www.youtube.com/@TheRootsofEverything
Substack: https://zacharyporcu.substack.com/ 

=====
NEW COURSE: Plutarch: Symbolism in History with Pavel Shchelin
The problem with history is that you are in it. Plutarch teaches us to read power symbolically—asking "whom does the hero serve?" to predict leadership patterns before they play out.
Presenter: Pavel Shchelin
Duration: 8 weeks studying the lives of Greeks and Roman Lycurgus, Alcibiades, Lysander, Pompey, Caesar, and Octavian –as living patterns, not dead men.
Live classes are on Wednesdays at 4-6pm Eastern Time, starting March 18th through May 6th, 2026.
Price: $180 USD, get the early bird discount of 15% off if you register by March 18th. 
Register now: https://www.thesymbolicworld.com/courses/plutarch-symbolism-in-history 
=====

SUMMIT 2026: Join us for the Symbolic World Summit 2026! Speakers include Fr. Josiah Trenham, Mary Harrington, Jonathan Pageau, Dn. Seraphim Rohlin, and others.
Date: May 14-16
Place: Broadview Heights, OH
Buy your tickets now and get $50 off with the early bird sale through March 26th. Don't miss out! Hope to see you there: https://symbolicworldsummit.com/

Timestamps:
00:00 - Coming up
01:03 - Intro music
01:29 - Introduction
03:54 - Jargon
05:46 - Matter and spirituality
08:49 - Re-enchantment
13:10 - What you see
22:09 - The moral and physical laws
31:01 - Occult converts
36:39 - Supernatural experiences
40:54 - What do we do?
46:46 - Meditation
49:47 - On American religion
52:16 - The rational and the esoteric

🔓 Become a patron to support us and unlock exclusive monthly symbolism content: https://thesymbolicworld.com/subscribe
💻 Website and blog: http://www.thesymbolicworld.com
🔗 Linktree: https://linktr.ee/jonathanpageau  
🎧 Listen to and review The Symbolic World podcast:
-Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0gI8bUwPtT3gkduHqNh6M5
-Apple podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-symbolic-world/id1386867488 
Our website designers: https://www.resonancehq.io/ 
My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson: https://matthewwilkinson.net/

This is a conversation between Deacon Seraphim Rohlin and Pavel Shchelin on political theology, power, and Plutarch’s Lives. They explore how ancient biographies reveal enduring patterns of ambition, authority, and the human passions that shape political history—from Rome to the modern world. Topics include Cicero, rhetoric and power, the fall of the Roman Republic, and why the stories of ancient statesmen still help us understand today’s political landscape.

YouTube version: https://youtu.be/Wo2IkgDT0q4

Please review this podcast on Spotify or Apple podcasts, it helps us a lot. Links:
-Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0gI8bUwPtT3gkduHqNh6M5 
-Apple podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-symbolic-world/id1386867488 

NEW COURSE: Plutarch: Symbolism in History with Pavel Shchelin
The problem with history is that you are in it. Plutarch teaches us to read power symbolically—asking "whom does the hero serve?" to predict leadership patterns before they play out.
Presenter: Pavel Shchelin
Duration: 8 weeks studying the lives of Greeks and Roman Lycurgus, Alcibiades, Lysander, Pompey, Caesar, and Octavian –as living patterns, not dead men.
Live classes are on Wednesdays at 4-6pm Eastern Time, starting March 18th through May 6th, 2026.
Price: $180 USD, get the early bird discount of 15% off if you register by March 18th. 
Register now: https://www.thesymbolicworld.com/courses/plutarch-symbolism-in-history 

SUMMIT 2026: Join us for the Symbolic World Summit 2026! Speakers include Fr. Josiah Trenham, Mary Harrington, Jonathan Pageau, Dn. Seraphim Rohlin, and others.
Date: May 14-16
Place: Broadview Heights, OH
Buy your tickets now and get $50 off with the early bird sale through March 12th. Don't miss out! Hope to see you there: https://symbolicworldsummit.com/

Timestamps:
00:00 - Coming up
01:32 - Intro music
01:58 - Introduction
03:47 - The separation of religion and politics
07:44 - Current politics
09:20 - How they met
10:46 - Why Plutarch?
18:46 - If you were pointing a video camera
20:20 - Great men
24:28 - Plutarch's Lives
26:57 - Influence
28:40 - Cicero
49:18 - Digging his own grave
56:58 - Word and will
01:05:48 - Cicero's lesson for us
01:10:58 - Course info
01:16:06 - The point of studying history

🔓 Become a patron to support us and unlock exclusive monthly symbolism content: https://thesymbolicworld.com/subscribe
💻 Website and blog: http://www.thesymbolicworld.com
🔗 Linktree: https://linktr.ee/jonathanpageau