The Symbolic World

I had a discussion with Gavin Ortlund about the Orthodox Church's position on salvation outside the church.

YouTube version: https://youtu.be/RtC8ENpbOW4

Buy Little Red Riding Hood now during the month of June and get the audiobook with for free: https://store.thesymbolicworld.com/

Join Seraphim Hamilton in studying the Book of Isaiah this June. Register now: https://www.thesymbolicworld.com/courses/the-fifth-gospel 

Timestamps
00:00 Introduction and background to the discussion
03:08 Steelmanning each other’s positions
04:12 Gavin summarizes the Orthodox view of salvation
05:37 Jonathan explains salvation as healing and theosis
06:36 Normative and non-normative ways of salvation
08:13 Jonathan summarizes Gavin’s historical argument
10:53 Gavin clarifies his thesis about Orthodoxy, Catholics, and Protestants
16:40 Is the modern Orthodox view a return to earlier tradition?
18:32 Gavin explains why the 9th–19th century period matters
20:20 Disagreement over whether individuals can be declared damned
22:57 Jonathan responds on Orthodox theological boundaries
24:54 Debate over the 9th century and the Photian schism
31:32 The question: Is Gavin a Christian brother?
38:37 The Synod of Jerusalem and Protestant theology
41:36 Jonathan reads from the Synod of Jerusalem
43:56 Gavin responds to Jonathan’s use of an old blog post
46:42 Gavin outlines the Synod’s language about Protestants
49:12 Jonathan argues synods define norms, not individual destinies
52:28 Gavin challenges the “normative” reading of the Synod
55:20 Normative texts, dogmatic authority, and qualifications
58:13 Theophan the Recluse and hope for the non-Orthodox
01:04:16 St. Philaret of Moscow and leaving souls to God’s mercy
01:09:35 Protestant missions in Orthodox lands
01:11:23 Gavin defends Protestant missionary theology
01:13:30 Jonathan critiques Protestant evangelism and denominationalism
01:16:21 The Eucharist, communion, and institutional exclusivism
01:18:16 Gavin explains why he is not Orthodox
01:20:44 Jonathan on Christ’s presence and God’s desire to save all
01:21:59 Are Protestants categorized like Buddhists or Muslims?
01:25:36 Salvation as transformation into the image of Christ
01:28:55 Theophan’s advice: focus on your own salvation
01:30:06 Personal holiness and evangelism
01:32:18 Calvinism, evangelism, and divine decree
01:36:52 Predestination, foreknowledge, and the River of Fire
01:39:59 Closing the theological discussion
01:40:33 Gavin’s apology and reflections on online discourse
01:42:59 A call for patient Protestant-Orthodox dialogue
01:44:12 Jonathan’s closing thanks

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💻 Website and blog: http://www.thesymbolicworld.com
🔗 Linktree: https://linktr.ee/jonathanpageau  

🎧 Listen to and review The Symbolic World podcast:
-Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0gI8bUwPtT3gkduHqNh6M5
-Apple podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-symbolic-world/id1386867488 

Our website designers: https://www.resonancehq.io/ 
My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson: https://matthewwilkinson.net/

I went to see Spielberg’s Disclosure Day and found myself watching a strange, late-stage piece of boomer propaganda about aliens, media, religion, and who we are supposed to trust. Here are my thoughts on the symbolism of the film.

Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/SBGPLaGfVTc

Buy Little Red Riding Hood now during the month of June and get the audiobook with for free: https://store.thesymbolicworld.com/

Join Seraphim Hamilton in studying the Book of Isaiah this June. Register now: https://www.thesymbolicworld.com/courses/the-fifth-gospel 

🔓 Become a patron to support us and unlock exclusive monthly symbolism content: https://thesymbolicworld.com/subscribe
💻 Website and blog: http://www.thesymbolicworld.com
🔗 Linktree: https://linktr.ee/jonathanpageau  

🎧 Listen to and review The Symbolic World podcast:
-Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0gI8bUwPtT3gkduHqNh6M5
-Apple podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-symbolic-world/id1386867488 

Our website designers: https://www.resonancehq.io/ 
My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson: https://matthewwilkinson.net/

We often think of enemies as those who attack us openly, but fairy tales also warn us about another kind of enemy: the one who comes close, pretends to be our friend, and destroys from within. I also discuss how this pattern appears in Scripture, culture, identity, and even technology, and why discernment is so important in our current moment.

Buy Little Red Riding Hood now during the month of June and get the audiobook with for free: https://store.thesymbolicworld.com/ 

YouTube version: https://youtu.be/U8VXqPX1-0Q

Join Seraphim Hamilton in studying the Book of Isaiah this June. Register now: https://www.thesymbolicworld.com/courses/the-fifth-gospel 

🔓 Become a patron to support us and unlock exclusive monthly symbolism content: https://thesymbolicworld.com/subscribe
💻 Website and blog: http://www.thesymbolicworld.com
🔗 Linktree: https://linktr.ee/jonathanpageau  

🎧 Listen to and review The Symbolic World podcast:
-Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0gI8bUwPtT3gkduHqNh6M5
-Apple podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-symbolic-world/id1386867488 

Our website designers: https://www.resonancehq.io/ 
My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson: https://matthewwilkinson.net/

I’m joined again by Seraphim Hamilton to discuss his upcoming Symbolic World course on Isaiah, beginning June 15th. We talk about why Isaiah is central for understanding Christ in the Old Testament, the relationship between prophecy, exile, the suffering servant, the gentile nations, and the deep symbolic unity between Scripture, liturgy, and creation.

Join Seraphim Hamilton in studying the Book of Isaiah this June. Register now to get 15% off before the early bird sale ends: https://www.thesymbolicworld.com/courses/the-fifth-gospel 

YouTube version: https://youtu.be/lPpBFh2-V90

Timestamps:
00:00 - Coming up
00:47 - Intro music
01:01 - Introducing Seraphim Hamilton and the Isaiah course
01:48 - Seminary, liturgy, and returning to Scripture
02:39 - Why Isaiah?
03:02 - Isaiah as a Christological book
05:27 - High Christology in the Old Testament
06:52 - Leviathan, Revelation, and the Angel of the Lord
07:51 - Isaiah 27 and the serpent of Genesis
08:22 - Sennacherib, Hezekiah, and the Angel of the Lord
10:51 - Are Old Testament prophecies taken out of context?
11:18 - Exile, Assyria, Babylon, and biblical prophecy
14:57 - Course promo: The Fifth Gospel
15:47 - Isaiah 14 and the fall of Satan
16:44 - The king of Babylon and the Daystar
19:06 - Isaiah 14, Isaiah 53, and the suffering servant
22:46 - Venus, Lucifer, and Christ as opposite images
24:22 - Angels, humanity, and the transfer of authority
25:57 - Is the suffering servant Israel or the Messiah?
26:23 - The Messiah as the son of David
28:50 - The servant, the seed, and the restoration of Israel
32:13 - How the nations participate in the promise
32:41 - The Old Testament and the redemption of the nations
34:54 - The mountain of the Lord and divine fire
37:34 - The heavenly Jerusalem and Isaiah 60
38:02 - Isaiah 59, incarnation, and the redemption of Israel
40:19 - The nations coming to honor the Jewish Messiah
43:14 - What the Isaiah class hopes to offer
43:56 - Seeing Christ disclosed in the Old Testament
46:36 - Symbolism, the Fathers, and the tight weave of Scripture
47:44 - Course details: five classes on Isaiah
48:49 - Closing and where to sign up

🔓 Become a patron to support us and unlock exclusive monthly symbolism content: https://thesymbolicworld.com/subscribe
💻 Website and blog: http://www.thesymbolicworld.com
🔗 Linktree: https://linktr.ee/jonathanpageau  

🎧 Listen to and review The Symbolic World podcast:
-Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0gI8bUwPtT3gkduHqNh6M5
-Apple podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-symbolic-world/id1386867488 

Our website designers: https://www.resonancehq.io/ 
My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson: https://matthewwilkinson.net/

This is a talk I did at Hillsdale College in March 2026. In this talk, I explore mythological thinking as a way of understanding how facts become meaningful. Facts do not present themselves to us neutrally. They are always organized by care, relevance, attention, and story. I look at examples from Genesis, Icarus, Spider-Man, the Tower of Babel, and modern science to show how myths preserve deep patterns of human experience. Rather than treating myth as fiction or primitive explanation, I argue that myth reveals the structures by which we perceive reality, understand purpose, and connect psychology with theology.

YouTube version: https://youtu.be/DEShUddn8HY

Join Seraphim Hamilton in studying the Book of Isaiah this June. Register now to get 15% off before the early bird sale ends: https://www.thesymbolicworld.com/courses/the-fifth-gospel

🔓 Become a patron to support us and unlock exclusive monthly symbolism content: https://thesymbolicworld.com/subscribe
💻 Website and blog: http://www.thesymbolicworld.com
🔗 Linktree: https://linktr.ee/jonathanpageau  

🎧 Listen to and review The Symbolic World podcast:
-Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0gI8bUwPtT3gkduHqNh6M5
-Apple podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-symbolic-world/id1386867488 

Timestamps:
00:00 Coming up
01:38 Intro music
02:03 Introduction at Hillsdale College
06:59 Talk begins: hope, fragmentation, and new conversations
09:19 “Facts don’t care about your feelings”
12:12 Care organizes facts
16:50 Facts are always contained in a story
19:15 The Fifth Gospel course announcement
20:10 Why stories survive across generations
24:04 Mythological stories vs. scientific descriptions
27:14 Origin stories and why we care
30:37 Genesis as more than a scientific text
33:34 Genesis, relevance, and human categories
37:38 Why the mythological story should be primary
39:36 Myths are not primitive explanations
41:47 Babel, Icarus, Prometheus, and repeated patterns
44:16 Applicability vs. allegory
47:40 All remembered stories are mythological
49:24 Psychology, theology, and human care
51:27 The Incarnation as the myth that came true
54:34 How story unites psychology and theology
58:29 Returning to mythological thinking
59:55 Q&A: Bringing mythological thinking into science education
01:02:58 Q&A: How to recognize false myths
01:07:37 Q&A: Speaking truth in hostile circles
01:08:53 Q&A: Original sin as a true myth
01:11:13 Q&A: How artists discover truth through story
01:13:42 Q&A: Why live by Christ’s story rather than another?
01:18:21 Q&A: The modern fall into cold, hard reality

Our website designers: https://www.resonancehq.io/ 
My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson: https://matthewwilkinson.net/