Keen On America

"We all love Thomas Paine. We just wish we liked him." — Jonathan Turley
Jonathan Turley's new book asks a deceptively simple question: why did the American Revolution become the longest-running successful democracy while the French Revolution devoured itself? The answer, he argues, lies in Madison's "auxiliary precautions" — constitutional safeguards designed not to eliminate rage but to channel it. Turley draws a direct line from Robespierre to today's calls to pack the Supreme Court and abolish the Senate, warning that removing those precautions invites the same mobocracy that sent the Jacobins to the guillotine. But the real provocation comes in the book's second half: with AI and robotics threatening mass unemployment, America may soon face a "kept population" — citizens subsidized by the state who lose their vital relationship to productivity and self-governance. We discuss Thomas Paine (brilliant about humanity, clueless about humans), why rage itself isn't the enemy, and whether the republic built to handle the 18th century can survive the 21st.
About the Guest
Jonathan Turley is the Shapiro Professor of Public Interest Law at George Washington University Law School. A legal analyst for CBS, NBC, BBC, and Fox News over three decades, he is the author of The Indispensable Right (a bestseller) and the new Rage and the Republic: The Unfinished Story of the American Revolution.
Chapters:
00:01:14 The uniqueness of the American Revolution
Two revolutions, two outcomes; Thomas Paine and James Madison as the twin geniuses
00:03:53 Paine vs. Madison on democracy
Paine wanted direct democracy; it nearly got him guillotined in France
00:05:54 Robespierre's transformation
The ACLU lawyer who came to believe "terror is virtue"
00:09:01 Thomas Paine: the penman of the revolution
From complete failure to revolutionary genius in two years
00:11:46 Slavery and the revolution's contradictions
Why people preferred Jefferson to Paine
00:15:43 Franklin's greatest achievement
Seeing something in "that heap of human wreckage"
00:18:07 What was unique about American rage
Not the rage itself, but the system designed to handle it
00:25:08 The "New Jacobins"
Calls to pack the Supreme Court and abolish the Senate
00:26:40 Rage on both sides
"Your rage is righteous, their rage is dangerous"
00:30:47 AI and the "kept population"
Mass unemployment and the citizen's relationship to the state
00:39:26 "Gynan" jobs
Homocentric industries like psychiatry and education that AI can't replace
00:45:00 Why the American Republic is still the best model
Decentralization over EU-style centralization
References

Figures discussed:
Thomas Paine — arrived in America "barely alive," became the penman of the revolution in two years
James Madison — designed the "auxiliary precautions" that prevented American democracy from devouring itself
Benjamin Franklin — paid for Paine's passage to America, saw genius in "that heap of human wreckage"
Maximilien Robespierre — began as an advocate for due process, ended declaring "terror is virtue"
Jean-Paul Marat — radical journalist, killed by Corday in his bathtub (he bathed constantly due to a skin disease)
Charlotte Corday — Republican who assassinated Marat; Robespierre and Danton watched her execution
Georges Danton — joined the moderate Girondin wing; executed by the revolution he helped create

Art:
The Death of Marat (1793) — Jacques-Louis David's painting of Marat's assassination; David was himself a Jacobin

Historical events:
The Battle of Fort Wilson (1779) — Philadelphia mob attacked founder James Wilson's home; several killed
The Reign of Terror (1793–94) — nearly all Jacobin leaders guillotined, including Danton and Robespierre

Books mentioned:
The Wealth of Nations (1776) — Adam Smith; embraced by the founders as "the perfect companion to their political theory"
The Federalist Papers (1787–88) — Hamilton, Madison, and Jay
About Keen On America
Nobody asks more impertinent questions than the Anglo-American writer, filmmaker and Silicon Valley entrepreneur Andrew Keen. In Keen On America , Andrew brings his sharp Transatlantic wit to the forces reshaping the United States — hosting daily interviews with leading thinkers and writers about American history, politics, technology, culture, and business. With nearly 2,800 episodes since the show launched on TechCrunch in 2010, Keen On America is the most prolific intellectual interview show in the history of podcasting.
Website
Substack
YouTube
Apple Podcasts
Spotify

"It may not be Mister Right YouTube, but it is Mister Right Now." — Erika Dilday
On Super Bowl Sunday — with America celebrating its 250th anniversary — Erika Dilday joins to discuss the power of documentary film to cut through algorithmic noise and show us who we really are. As executive producer of POV, the longest-running documentary program on American television (now entering its 39th season), Dilday has spent her career championing first-person storytelling that platforms won't surface. She's also co-directing an upcoming series with Ken Burns, Emancipation to Exodus, exploring the period from the Civil War to the Great Migration. We discuss why algorithms limit discovery, whether AI can replicate human nuance, and what she learned from screening films at San Quentin.
About the Guest
Erika Dilday is the Executive Producer of POV, America's longest-running documentary series, now in its 39th season on PBS. She is co-directing Emancipation to Exodus with Ken Burns, a documentary series about the period from the end of the Civil War to the Great Migration, scheduled for PBS in 2027. Her father was the first Black television station manager in the United States.
Chapters:
00:00:01 Opening
Super Bowl Sunday, America's 250th, and Erika's prediction ("all Patriots all the way")
00:02:28 Emancipation to Exodus
Her collaboration with Ken Burns on the period from Civil War to Great Migration (PBS, 2027)
00:05:09 Her father's legacy
The first Black TV station manager in the United States; "Those who want change don't have the luxury of being comfortable"
00:06:23 Documentary as truth and art
What distinguishes film from news; Hoop Dreams and the power of immersive storytelling
00:08:21 POV's mission
39 seasons, Tongues Untied, and stories that wouldn't be told elsewhere
00:11:27 PBS and the culture wars
Pressures on public broadcasting, the need for alternative distribution
00:15:47 YouTube: Mister Right Now
Not the ideal platform, but the only one for democratic distribution
00:17:38 San Quentin Film Festival
Incarcerated audiences engaging deeply with documentary
00:20:06 Media consolidation
Time Warner, Netflix, Paramount; indie platforms like Mubi and Ovid
00:21:49 Algorithms and discovery
Platforms suggest what they think you want, not what might stretch your thinking
00:24:47 AI vs. human nuance
"It can be imitated, but it's not going to be replicated"
00:27:26 Oscar picks
The Perfect Neighbor (2025) (Netflix) and Cutting Through Rocks (2025) (the sleeper)
References:
POV
Hoop Dreams (1994) — documentary about two Chicago high school students dreaming of NBA careers
Tongues Untied (1989) — Marlon Riggs' documentary on Black gay identity in America (POV Season 4)
Salesman (1968) — Maysles Brothers documentary following door-to-door Bible salesmen
The Perfect Neighbor (2025) — Geeta Gandbhir's documentary about a killing in Florida, told through body cam footage (Netflix)
Cutting Through Rocks (2025) — Sara Khaki and Mohammad Reza Eyni's documentary about a female elected official and motorcycle rider in Iran
San Quentin Film Festival — the first film festival ever held inside a U.S. prison, celebrating incarcerated and formerly incarcerated filmmakers
Independent platforms mentioned: Mubi, Ovid, Jolt

About Keen On America
Keen On America is a daily podcast hosted by Andrew Keen, the Anglo-American writer and Silicon Valley insider. Every day, Andrew brings his uniquely transatlantic and eclectic eye to the forces reshaping the United States — interviewing leading thinkers and writers about American politics, technology, culture, and democracy. With nearly 2,800 episodes, Keen On America is the most prolific intellectual interview show in podcasting history.
Website: KeenOn.TV
Substack: keenon.substack.com
YouTube: youtube.com/@KeenOnShow
Apple Podcasts: Keen On America
Spotify: Keen On America

"I didn't use my own software this week because the OpenAI agents were better. And that's me retiring my own software." — Keith Teare
Something broke this week. Both Anthropic and OpenAI launched multi-agent systems—"agent swarms"—that don't just assist with tasks but replace custom-built software entirely. The market noticed: Adobe, Salesforce, Workday, and other legacy SaaS companies saw their stocks collapse in what some are calling a trillion-dollar selloff. Keith Teare joins Andrew Keen on Super Bowl weekend to unpack what may be the most consequential week in AI since ChatGPT launched.
The conversation ranges from the Anthropic-OpenAI advertising spat (Dario Amodei's Super Bowl ad vs. Sam Altman's "online tantrum") to the deeper structural shifts: Microsoft and Amazon becoming utilities, Google betting $185 billion on an AI-first pivot, and Elon Musk merging SpaceX with xAI to put data centers in space. Along the way, Teare and Keen debate whether the AI race is a myth or a wacky race, whether venture capital is in crisis, and what happens to human labor when agents do the work.

About the Guest
Keith Teare is a British-American entrepreneur, investor, and technology analyst. He co-founded RealNames Corporation, a pioneering internet company, and later served as Executive Chairman of TechCrunch. He is the founder of That Was The Week and SignalRank, and publishes a widely-read weekly newsletter on technology, venture capital, and the business of innovation. He brings four decades of experience in Silicon Valley to his analysis of the AI revolution.

Chapters:
00:00 Super Bowl and the Anthropic ad
The spat between Dario Amodei and Sam Altman
01:09 "Fundamentally dishonest"
 Keith's take on the ad war and who's really Dick Dastardly
05:47 Anthropic's breakout week
 Claude Opus 4.6 and the agent swarm launch
06:48 OpenAI Codex
 Multiple agents collaborating on tasks in 10-15 minutes
07:42 "It replaces software"
 Keith retires his own custom-built tools
08:16 The trillion-dollar selloff
 Adobe, Salesforce, Workday, PayPal collapse
11:02 Infrastructure vs. innovation
 Microsoft and Amazon become "utilities"
11:45 Google's $185 billion bet
 Pivoting from hybrid to AI-first
13:15 The SpaceX/xAI merger
 Musk's plan for space-based data centers
15:18 The AI wacky race
 Kimi, OpenAI, Anthropic leapfrog Google
17:03 Does AI make us smarter?
 Leverage tools, not intelligence
18:53 AI growing up, CEOs not
 The adolescence of the industry
21:06 US job openings hit five-year low
 The coming labor crisis
22:44 The VC crisis
 Five funds sucking the air out of the room
25:04 Palantir and Anduril
 The winners in defense AI
25:42 Facebook as laggard
 Huge revenues, no AI momentum
26:41 The Washington Post crisis
 "Boogeyman journalism" and partisan media
29:23 Ads in AI
 Paid links vs. enshittification
31:26 Spotify's innovation
 Physical book + audiobook bundle
32:32 Startup of the week
 Cursor for CRM, $20M from Sequoia
33:45 Om Malik on the end of software distribution
 From CDs to app stores to self-made
35:41 Super Bowl prediction
 Seattle vs. New England
36:02 Closing
 "That really was the week in tech"

Links & References
Mentioned in this episode:
That Was The Week newsletter by Keith Teare
Anthropic's Super Bowl ad and ad-free pledge (CNBC)
Sam Altman's response to Anthropic ads (TechCrunch)
SpaceX acquires xAI in $1.25 trillion merger (CNBC)
The Washington Post layoffs and crisis (Poynter)
Om Malik on the evolution of software distribution
OpenAI Codex app launch (OpenAI)

About Keen On America
Nobody asks more impertinent questions than the Anglo-American writer, filmmaker and Silicon
Valley entrepreneur Andrew Keen. In Keen On America , Andrew brings his sharp Transatlantic
wit to the forces reshaping the United States — hosting daily interviews with leading thinkers
and writers about American history, politics, technology, culture, and business. With nearly
2,800 episodes since the show launched on TechCrunch in 2010, Keen On America is the most
prolific intellectual interview show in the history of podcasting.
Website | Substack | YouTube

What kind of leadership can hold a fractured democracy together?
About the Guest
Stephen Schlesinger is an American historian, author, and foreign policy analyst. The son of Arthur Schlesinger Jr.—Pulitzer Prize–winning historian and special assistant to President John F. Kennedy—and grandson of Arthur Schlesinger Sr., he grew up at the centre of one of America's most distinguished intellectual families. Schlesinger is the author of Act of Creation: The Founding of the United Nations, and has written widely on American foreign policy and international institutions. He knew both John and Robert Kennedy personally, and brings a rare insider perspective to the history of American liberalism.
About This Episode
"He went around the table asking us, 'Do you still believe in God?' — this was 1967, he was already being considered for the presidency. Why would a man of this intensity and ambition be talking about these issues?" - Stephen Schlesinger
After two days exploring the surveillance state and the ethics of unmasking—with Andrew Guthrie Ferguson on how your data will be used against you and Christopher Mathias on the fight to expose the radical right—Andrew Keen steps back to ask a larger question: What kind of leadership can hold a fractured democracy together?
Stephen Schlesinger joins the show from the Upper West Side of New York to offer a historian's perspective—and a personal one. From his father's role in Camelot to his own memories of playing touch football with Bobby Kennedy at Hickory Hill, Schlesinger reflects on what made the Kennedy brothers effective leaders in a divided country, and what lessons their example holds for progressives today. The conversation moves from the founding of the republic (one-third pro-British) through the Civil War to the present fracture, and asks whether elections remain democracy's "great solver"—or whether something has fundamentally changed.
Chapters:
00:00 Introduction
 On the road in New York, beside Columbia University
01:10 What Has Happened to America?
 Schlesinger’s 250-year view of national fracture
03:40 The One-Third Fracture
 Why a leader with minority support cannot impose ideology on 330 million
05:15 Elections as the Great Solver
 Except for the Civil War, the ballot box has resolved every American crisis
07:30 An Intellectual Aristocracy
 Harvard, the Schlesinger legacy, and the view from inside the American elite
10:45 The Romance of Camelot
 Meeting JFK, the magnetism of youth, and the television presidency
14:20 Bobby’s Vulnerability
 The dinner where RFK asked, “Do you still believe in God?”
17:45 Touch Football at Hickory Hill
 Bobby’s toughness and the bullet pass Schlesinger had to catch
20:30 Jackie vs. Hickory Hill
 Two styles of Kennedy parenting
22:15 Composed Jack, Emotional Bobby
 Arthur Schlesinger Jr.’s perspective on the two brothers
24:40 The Assassinations
 The White House, Lyndon Johnson’s motorcade, and the bar exam Schlesinger failed
28:15 Could Bobby Have Won?
 Humphrey, the nomination, and what might have been
30:30 The Kennedys and Internationalism
 From Joe Kennedy’s isolationism to JFK’s UN vision and RFK during the Cuban Missile Crisis
34:00 Chris Matthews and the Bobby Kennedy Cenentary
Lessons for Today
36:30 The Perpetual Civic Duty
Why each generation must defend constitutional freedoms anew
38:45 Closing
Advice to grandchildren and the enduring fight for democracy
Links & References
Mentioned in this episode:
Act of Creation: The Founding of the United Nations by Stephen Schlesinger
A Thousand Days: John F. Kennedy in the White House by Arthur Schlesinger Jr.
Robert Kennedy: His Life by Evan Thomas
Bobby Kennedy: A Raging Spirit by Chris Matthews
The Power and the Glory by Graham Greene — the novel Bobby Kennedy mentioned reading at a 1967 dinner Schlesinger attended
Why England Slept by John F. Kennedy (1940)
Previous episode: Andrew Guthrie Ferguson on Your Data Will Be Used Against You (Episode 2794)
About Keen On America
Nobody asks more impertinent questions than the Anglo-American writer, filmmaker and Silicon
Valley entrepreneur Andrew Keen. In Keen On America , Andrew brings his sharp Transatlantic
wit to the forces reshaping the United States — hosting daily interviews with leading thinkers
and writers about American history, politics, technology, culture, and business. With nearly
2,800 episodes since the show launched on TechCrunch in 2010, Keen On America is the most
prolific intellectual interview show in the history of podcasting.
Website | Substack | YouTube

A man was convicted by his own heartbeat — and that's just the beginning of our digital dystopia.

About the Guest
Andrew Guthrie Ferguson is Professor of Law at George Washington University Law School and a national expert on surveillance technologies, policing, and criminal justice. He is an elected member of the American Law Institute and the author of the PROSE Award–winning The Rise of Big Data Policing. His new book, Your Data Will Be Used Against You: Policing in the Age of Self-Surveillance (NYU Press, March 2026), examines how smart devices and digital surveillance are transforming criminal prosecution — and what the law must do to catch up.
About This Episode
Following yesterday’s conversation with Christopher Mathias about doxxing and the ethics of unmasking, Andrew Keen turns to the legal side of the same question: what happens when the data we generate about ourselves becomes evidence? Andrew Guthrie Ferguson joins the show from Washington, D.C. to discuss his new book — a deeply researched investigation into how pacemakers, smartphones, smart cars, and doorbell cameras are being used to convict people in court, and why the law has almost nothing to say about it.
The conversation moves from a man convicted by his own heartbeat to AI-powered real-time crime centres, from Eric Schmidt’s infamous privacy defence to masked ICE agents in Minneapolis, and from Bentham’s panopticon to Ferguson’s proposed “tyrant test” — a framework for designing data protections by imagining the worst leader with access to your most intimate information.
Chapters:
00:00 Introduction: Digital privacy and unmasking
The theme of digital privacy and what it means to be unmasked in a data-driven world
01:25 Meet Andrew Guthrie Ferguson
 Introducing the guest and his new book on privacy, surveillance, and the law
02:10 The Dual-Edged Sword of Digital Devices
 How our everyday devices expose everyone and the complicated trade-offs that creates
03:40 From “Don’t Be Ashamed” to Privacy Nuance
 The shift from early Silicon Valley privacy optimism to a more complex reality
04:45 Regulating Government, Not Google
 Ferguson’s focus on keeping personal data out of court rather than off corporate servers
05:55 The Pacemaker Data Court Case
 How personal medical device data was used as evidence in a criminal trial
07:30 Convicted by His Own Heartbeat
 An arson and insurance fraud case where heart-rate data contradicted the suspect’s story
09:40 Google’s Three-Part Warrant System
 How tech companies helped shape rules for law enforcement access to location data
11:15 The Fourth Amendment Digital Gap
 What reasonable expectations of privacy mean in the modern digital environment
12:45 Digital Privileges and Intimate Data
 Whether certain types of personal data should be legally protected like confidential relationships
14:20 Surveillance Battles on the Ground
 Protests, law enforcement, and the evolving intelligence dynamic in Minneapolis
16:05 “Just Doing Our Job” and State Surveillance
 The common defence of surveillance practices and why it remains controversial
18:10 The Texas Drone Fleet
 Drones as first responders and the expansion of aerial policing technology
20:45 Real-Time Crime Centers and Mass Cameras
 Integrated camera networks, data fusion, and the lack of clear oversight
22:50 The Tyrant Test for Privacy Laws
 Designing privacy protections assuming the worst possible leader has access to the data
25:15 AI Supercharges Surveillance
 How artificial intelligence turns ordinary cameras into powerful tracking tools
27:30 AI-Assisted Police Reports
 Using body-camera audio and AI tools to generate reports and the implications for justice
29:10 No Turning Back From Technology
 Why abandoning digital tools isn’t realistic and why new laws may be needed instead
31:15 Closing: Every Smart Device Is Surveillance
 The idea that modern connected devices inherently function as surveillance tools

Links & References

Mentioned in this episode:
Your Data Will Be Used Against You — NYU Press
Andrew Guthrie Ferguson — GW Law School faculty page
Perplexity for Public Safety — free AI tool for law enforcement
Previous episode: Christopher Mathias on To Catch a Fascist (Episode 2793)
Carpenter v. United States (2018) — Supreme Court ruling on cell-site location data and the Fourth Amendment

About Keen On America
Nobody asks more impertinent questions than the Anglo-American writer, filmmaker and Silicon Valley entrepreneur Andrew Keen. In Keen On America , Andrew brings his sharp Transatlantic wit to the forces reshaping the United States — hosting daily interviews with leading thinkers
and writers about American history, politics, technology, culture, and business. With nearly 2,800 episodes since the show launched on TechCrunch in 2010, Keen On America is the most prolific intellectual interview show in the history of podcasting.
Website | Substack | YouTube